what were payrates from last AAI TA?

[wood pecker]

Are the rates from the failed TAs anywhere close to what JetBlue and Alaska currently have?

Are RES credits the next to go after the loss of the 60 hour Emer bank?

For ex: Most RES fos that I know are getting around 100 hours credit.

100 x $56/hour (2nd year rate) = $5600 (in a world without taxes and other stuff)

Take away credits and the new rates would have to be $5600/70 = $80/hour.

Is the union trying for that type of ($80 per hour) pay. If not I hope that there will be more days off or some type of higher gaurantee to balance the loss.

 

[Colonel Savage]

Did you try posting your question on the Majors forum? More of the AAI pilots are there rather than here.

 

[scarlet]

NO reserve pilot is getting 100 hours anymore. I guess you do not have many friends on reserve. They have started URPing over a year and half ago.

It is more like 73-78 hours on reserve times 56.00/hour.

 

[Mongolikecandy]

NO reserve pilot is getting 100 hours anymore. I guess you do not have many friends on reserve. They have started URPing over a year and half ago.

It is more like 73-78 hours on reserve times 56.00/hour.

Block 70.36 Credit 98.44 YTD 503.04 Days Off 12
Results of my Dec. reserve schedule. At least one pilot is getting 100 hours.

 

[Colonel Savage]

Is the YTD of 503.04 actual block time?

 

[maxblast72]

NO reserve pilot is getting 100 hours anymore. I guess you do not have many friends on reserve. They have started URPing over a year and half ago.

It is more like 73-78 hours on reserve times 56.00/hour.

Awarded an 717 CA R1 reserve line for December. Line ended up being 72+48 block and 99+11 credit. I ended up with 13 days off (11 scheduled + 2 urped). Woke up at home Christmas morning and off New Year's Eve. 11 RONs and 20 nights at home. TAFB = 279 hrs. Not great but not terrible. That is around $12,250, $500 per diem, and a $1,300 B-fund contribution. For a 2004 hire, that is really not that bad looking around the industry and comparing where other 2004 hires are at in their career. Obviously, with the profitability of Airtran in 2009, the company can afford a significant increase in pilot costs in the next contract (especially for FOs).

717 FOs have not been getting as many hours as we are pretty well staffed in the seat. With the amount of open time on the 737 in Jan, I would bet the 737 reserve guys are going to credit at least 100 hrs.

I basically ended up 26.5 hrs of soft pay for December. The breakdown for soft pay was:
- 10.8 hr deadhead
- 5.2 hr due to duty period guarantee
- 3.5 hr for one unused reserve period (no call for the day)
- 4 hr for one ready reserve period with no flying
- 3 hrs for door close/underblock

So under the reserve rules of TA2, my monthly credit would have been around 94 hrs. All soft pay due to deadhead, duty period guarantee, and ready reserve still would have counted. The only thing lost in TA2 would have been the 3.5 hrs credit for the one day I sat at home without being used and some door close soft pay.

The biggest reason reserve pay is so high at Airtran is because a reserve day typically works 18-20 days a month (depending on how many reserve days scheduling removes).

 

[Mongolikecandy]

Is the YTD of 503.04 actual block time?

Yes. I was a returning furloughee thus the low block time for the year.

 

[wood pecker]

Thanks for the responses. From what yall can tell, are CA's ok w/ FOs getting $20-30/ hour raises and them not getting as much?

If the vote was tomorrow and it included $30/ hour raises for FOs and $10/ hour raises for CAs what else would be needed to make everyone satisfied?

 

[maxblast72]

Thanks for the responses. From what yall can tell, are CA's ok w/ FOs getting $20-30/ hour raises and them not getting as much?

If the vote was tomorrow and it included $30/ hour raises for FOs and $10/ hour raises for CAs what else would be needed to make everyone satisfied?

It is way more complicated than that. For example, going from 3 hr a month sick accrual to 6 hr a month accrual is on average a $5,000/year increase for Captains and $2,500/year increase for FOs. Our next TA needs to be looked at as a whole (all sections). Depending whether you are a max pay person, QOL person, reserve, buildup, standup, etc there will be pluses and minuses. Each person needs to evaluate for themselves and make an informed decision.

I do believe that most guys realize that our First Officers are farther from industry average than our Captains. Our junior captains are pretty far from industry average, but then again our junior captains would still be FOs at any other airline other than Airtran or Jetblue. Needless to say, I think our current MEC/LEC has a pretty good handle on what the pilot group wants as a whole (not just the 300 guys on the Airtran forum) and won't bring back a TA that won't pass by a large margin. Our last failed TA back in 2007 made our union leadership (NPA) look like a bunch of idiots in front our mediator as they basically proved they had no idea what the pilots wanted.

 

[dicko]

It is way more complicated than that. For example, going from 3 hr a month sick accrual to 6 hr a month accrual is on average a $5,000/year increase for Captains and $2,500/year increase for FOs. Our next TA needs to be looked at as a whole (all sections). Depending whether you are a max pay person, QOL person, reserve, buildup, standup, etc there will be pluses and minuses. Each person needs to evaluate for themselves and make an informed decision.

I do believe that most guys realize that our First Officers are farther from industry average than our Captains. Our junior captains are pretty far from industry average, but then again our junior captains would still be FOs at any other airline other than Airtran or Jetblue. Needless to say, I think our current MEC/LEC has a pretty good handle on what the pilot group wants as a whole (not just the 300 guys on the Airtran forum) and won't bring back a TA that won't pass by a large margin. Our last failed TA back in 2007 made our union leadership (NPA) look like a bunch of idiots in front our mediator as they basically proved they had no idea what the pilots wanted.

The sick pay section is a raise ?

Tell PCL to get off you and buy you dinner ....

 

[Eagle757shark]

Thanks for the responses. From what yall can tell, are CA's ok w/ FOs getting $20-30/ hour raises and them not getting as much?

If the vote was tomorrow and it included $30/ hour raises for FOs and $10/ hour raises for CAs what else would be needed to make everyone satisfied?

Wood pecker, TA2 was a joke! A new contract is more than just a hourly payrate. SCOPE (number one for me, give away your job and pay means nothing), Scheduling, Insurance, Duty Rigs, Retirement are all important. Like someone mentioned above, you have to evaluate the whole contract and not just a hourly payrate. Another thing that AirTran pilots want is transparency and language that is clear and definitive. In our current CBA, scheduling loves to change the terms of what is written. Our current CBA is to vague in its language and that needs to be corrected in the next contract. From what I read in TA1 and TA2, the NPA did not correct that problem. ALPA national has a track record of improving CBA language.

 

[wood pecker]

If you get asked what you expected in order to vote yes what would you say.

What type of scope? for ex: some are pleased w/ Skywest while others feel all flying should be done by AAI pilots. Scope is a major item that could sink the next vote.

What will it take for a senior person to bid reserve other than getting Xmas off? Everyone says transparency which means what?

Do you only want to know where you stand that day on call or do you desire a system that involves real short and long call? The short call would pay a higher grnte while the long call get to relax at home for their 12 hour call. (I think Alaska has this system)

Instead keeping track of events that will someday encourage an ill person to fly in fear of being scarred w/ an event, (some were afraid to tap their emer bank as they are jerks that chose to infect everyone else) why not just make a real commuter clause that allows you to join up w/ your trip as oppose to missing 4 days worth of flying due to ASA having a mx issue.

What type of details do you think shold be included as I am not sure everyone wants the same thing except for raises and retro pay.

 

[Lear70]

That's what I get for not looking at the LCC section for a while, sorry. Here are the pay rates from the T.A. Rebuttal I put together during the vote for T.A. 2:

F/O's by Year

1: 38.50 ($5 per hour (10%) pay CUT from current book)
2: 63.00
3: 67.78
4: 74.07
5: 76.90
6: 79.83
7: 82.68
8: 84.97
9: 87.52
10: 90.52
11: 92.85
12: 95.64

CA's by year:

1: 95.03 (33% pay raise but NO 1st year CA's are going to exist for a long time to come).
2: 113.98
3: 118.32
4: 122.84
5: 127.52
6: 132.37
7: 137.09
8: 140.91
9: 145.13
10: 149.49
11: 153.97
12: 158.59
13: 163.34
14: 168.25
15: 173.30


Bear in mind, the work rule give backs from door close, historical leg value pay, etc, were about a 4% pay CUT after those rates, so when you're doing your average pay calculation per month, remember to multiply * .96 to get the actual pre-deductions (taxes, etc) take-home.

Most reserves are crediting around 80-85 hours from what I hear these days. Like Max said, the credit is higher because you can't drop your own days that you want most of the time and end up with only 12 days off, sometimes more if you are involuntarily removed from a reserve day (URP'd) to keep your credit down.

Most people use 75-80 hours to determine their "average" monthly take-home. Then again, most people want at least 14-16 days a month off at home... if you have nothing better to do than fly, you can do better than that in pay, but most people burn out on a busier schedule.

 

[Ty Webb]

Hoo, Boy . . . . . An $8./hr raise, after 5 years. They're going to have to be close to $20./hr to get a deal, and, even more importantly for them, to try to regain ANY sort of goodwill.

 

[JerryLundegaard]

. . . . and, even more importantly for them, to try to regain ANY sort of goodwill.

Why is goodwill important to them, if they were the ones destroying it to begin with? That doesn't make any sense!

 

[CesnaCaptn]

... some door close soft pay.

What is "door close soft pay?"

 

[Colonel Savage]

AAI pilots used to start getting paid for a leg as soon as the main cabin door closed before pushback, now they don't get paid until wheels start rolling for pushback.

 

[maxblast72]

Why is goodwill important to them, if they were the ones destroying it to begin with? That doesn't make any sense!

Management is just trying to convince us they can't afford to pay us more. It is just business. Management knows sooner or later Airtran pilots costs are going up and they are just dragging their feet to save money for as long as possible.

Welcome to the airlines. The only airlines with a different mentality would probably be Jetblue and Southwest.

 

[maxblast72]

AAI pilots used to start getting paid for a leg as soon as the main cabin door closed before pushback, now they don't get paid until wheels start rolling for pushback.

Actually, we still get paid from door close but TA2 (if ratified) would have taken that away. I believe the union priced that as a 3% concession.

 

[Lear70]

Actually, we still get paid from door close but TA2 (if ratified) would have taken that away. I believe the union priced that as a 3% concession.

That's what they claimed. Info I have says 4%.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

I understand that you get paid when the L1 door is closed. Is that the only door that needs to be closed? What about a pit door or an aft door? This might seem like a stupid question, but are you considered blocked out (flight time started) when you start getting paid?

At Alaska, we used to release the break and start getting paid when all upper doors were closed. Now, we have to wait until we have been cleared for push. We could be waiting, buttoned up, for a while waiting for numbers, traffic in the alley, pax in the biffy, etc., without getting paid. Our COO has been quoted, although not officially on the record, that he "understands" that we expect to be paid when the MCD is closed. He says that there is no system in place to pay us when the door closes, without considering us blocked out for FAA flight time regs.

 

[JerryLundegaard]

I was told that most ACARS units can be programed to send different out times at once, such as wheel motion to both maintenance for aircraft block time and the station to determine better eta's, or the main cabin door closing times to crew tracking for payroll and duty time caculation.

Either way, programming ACARS to the company'e liking is becoming an industry wide practice. JB, UAL, LCC and NK have all gone from door closure to wheel motion and have really riled up the troops.

 

[ERfly]

I was told that most ACARS units can be programed to send different out times at once, such as wheel motion to both maintenance for aircraft block time and the station to determine better eta's, or the main cabin door closing times to crew tracking for payroll and duty time caculation.

Either way, programming ACARS to the company'e liking is becoming an industry wide practice. JB, UAL, LCC and NK have all gone from door closure to wheel motion and have really riled up the troops.

We do that with our IN times on our ACARS at XJT. It captures 2 times.

First door open (usually the bag door) = DOT IN TIME for FAA, DOT, etc

Main Cabin Door open = Pay time

 

[j41driver]

This might seem like a stupid question, but are you considered blocked out (flight time started) when you start getting paid?

No. The ACARS tracks DOOR, OUT, OFF, ON and IN times. Flight time is OUT - IN. Pay time is DOOR - IN.

 

[Lear70]

No. The ACARS tracks DOOR, OUT, OFF, ON and IN times. Flight time is OUT - IN. Pay time is DOOR - IN.

To explain it better to someone who hasn't been through the multiple memos of "don't roll the wheels for an on-time" then have the ground crews trying to do exactly that...

ACARS tracks OUT time by when the wheels move a certain speed for a certain amount of time. Therefore, when the push crew starts pushing you back, the ACARS sends the OUT signal, which is what all Flight Times for FAR purposes are gauged by.

In the past, the ground crews would ask you to "roll for an on-time", even if you didn't have a push clearance, which would mean they would push you backwards 20-30 feet to get the clock moving, then bring you back in slightly so ground control doesn't get torqued that you just blocked the roadway or the alley.

There have been several memos instructing the pilots NOT to do that, so you can sometimes sit with the door closed, getting paid, for 2, 5, even 10 minutes or more if it's really congested in the alley.

The last T.A. tried to take most of that soft time away by linking pay to the earlier of either wheels moving (OUT), or DOOR + 10 minutes. Because we flew primarily in and out of ATL when that T.A. was being pushed, and not so much point-to-point or MKE/BWI/MCO flying, it was a not-inconsequential concession / pay cut that offset (or in some cases came close to canceling out) the hourly pay increases of 3%-6% on average for most seats/longevity.

Hope that makes more sense to you guys... If I got a detail wrong, someone speak up, it's been over 2 1/2 years, and no one recalls everything right all the time...

 

[HalinTexas]

Don't start the engines until pushback is complete and disconnected. Two engine taxis. No short cuts. No intersections. Slow, slow. slow. Don't "carry" any airplanes. Carry captain's fuel, if you have it. Use that APU. Don't run checklists or get clearances until the door is closed.

 

[maxblast72]

Don't start the engines until pushback is complete and disconnected. Two engine taxis. No short cuts. No intersections. Slow, slow. slow. Don't "carry" any airplanes. Carry captain's fuel, if you have it. Use that APU. Don't run checklists or get clearances until the door is closed.

Why stop with just those illegal job actions? Why not have a sickout, pick up no opentime, and other things so we can have the mediator put our negotiations on ice for a year when we are getting down to the final endgame. Picketing, strike votes, press releases, and strikes are legal per the RLA and can put serious pressure on companies. It is the system of rules we live under. If you don't like the rules, write your congressman to change the RLA to reflect today's airline industry.

 

[wood pecker]

Has anyone heard if AAI is seeking 150% pay at a certain trigger point? I think it is 78 hours at Jet Blue.

 

[gearup5]

Most FO's are expecting somewhere in the 25-30 dollar range depending on year.

FUPM
Suck it Bob!

 

[Max Powers]

Just got lectured by an old Eastern Boy about how we won't win in a strike so don't even bother. He of course likened the situation to The Eastern debacle. I put him in his place very fast. Lets just say he didn't bring it up the rest of the trip.