I am guessing they will find regional pilots at fault here.

[Kalifornia]

Oh brother, round and round, dead horse beating, circular argument to ensue.........



Sort of.



Read the transcripts on AA's Columbia/LIT accidents. Lengthy error chains, leading to deadly results. Poor CRM, poor SA, poor SOP adherence, etc.

So in the following two examples, where should the outrage really be?

Poorly trained, inexperienced pilots kill people. As sad as it is, that's a direct cause/effect relationship. It's just a matter of time before that relationship will develop. OR,

Experienced/high paid pilots, have severe lapse in judgment, poor SA, don't follow SOPs, and kill people. How can such professionals make so many mistakes? I mean, they're the higher paid, more experienced pilots, they should be flawless, should they not?



Reference the above examples, can you REALLY say what the difference is between a "professional mistake" and a "deadly lapse in professional demeanor" is? The crews in Columbia/LIT did BOTH. Using good judgment, keeping SA up, using CRM, following SOP's is ALL part of "professional demeanor".

Note, not picking on AA. It's just that both those accidents make for good examples.

Point is, highly experienced pilots can kill people just as easily and quickly as those that aren't. It's been happening for years.

So you got 5000 plus hours and I have to wonder what point are you trying to make here; you think a 250 wonder pilot can replace you? Is this some self defeating prophecy? Wouldn't you say your judgment has been altered over that time? Do you think a highly experienced doctor is more or less likely to kill a patient versus a new doctor? The Pinnacle FL410 was reckless behavior. The Colgan accident involves enough factors to warrant a full court press by Congress as to WTF is going on with these low ball carriers and there terrible work conditions.

I've read the reports on the AA Little Rock accident and there plenty of mistakes for everyone to learn from which was why it's highlighted in CRM class. But I have a hard time imaging the Little Rock pilots under the same circumstances would have crashed in Buffalo unlike vice versa. Of course anyone and everyone makes mistakes, but the idea it's just luck of the draw and there are no real safety factors (like fatigue: Little Rock, Buffalo or bare minimum winter training/experience: Buffalo) that need to be addressed is kinda stupid and self defeating.

 

[dojetdriver]

Oh boy, guess I need to say it again;

Oh brother, round and round, dead horse beating, circular argument to ensue.........

Just going by your profile, we may work together. And if you were LAX based, we may have flown together.

So you got 5000 plus hours and I have to wonder what point are you trying to make here; you think a 250 wonder pilot can replace you?

Guess I'll have to update that number

But to answer your question, no. Never said that, you're trying to infer something that I NEVER said.

Is this some self defeating prophecy?

No.

Wouldn't you say your judgment has been altered over that time?

Yep, but to take it down to a simpler level, either you can do this job or you can't. If you do indeed work at the same company I do, you know what I'm talking about. If so, take a look at the FO list for our southern most base, you'll see what I mean.

Do you think a highly experienced doctor is more or less likely to kill a patient versus a new doctor?

Funny, experienced physicians can kill people just like ones that are not. You ever hear about people being operated on and the surgeon leaves an instrument in their body? You ever hear of them amputating the wrong appendage? You ever hear of them misdiagnosing or improperly medicating a patient? Happens to the tune of over 100,000 people a year, many of them die from it. You think in EVERY case it was an inexperienced physician/surgeon? People screw up, it's human nature, it'll never go away.

The Pinnacle FL410 was reckless behavior. The Colgan accident involves enough factors to warrant a full court press by Congress as to WTF is going on with these low ball carriers and there terrible work conditions.

Sadly, I'll bet both those inexperienced Colgan pilots at one point flew in similar circumstances and did absolutely NOTHING wrong.

And I agree with your point, but I'll repeat myself AGAIN for those that don't/can't read;

So in the following two examples, where should the outrage really be?

Poorly trained, inexperienced pilots kill people. As sad as it is, that's a direct cause/effect relationship. It's just a matter of time before that relationship will develop. OR,

Experienced/high paid pilots, have severe lapse in judgment, poor SA, don't follow SOPs, and kill people. How can such professionals make so many mistakes? I mean, they're the higher paid, more experienced pilots, they should be flawless, should they not?

I've read the reports on the AA Little Rock accident and there plenty of mistakes for everyone to learn from which was why it's highlighted in CRM class. But I have a hard time imaging the Little Rock pilots under the same circumstances would have crashed in Buffalo unlike vice versa. Of course anyone and everyone makes mistakes, but the idea it's just luck of the draw and there are no real safety factors (like fatigue: Little Rock, Buffalo or bare minimum winter training/experience: Buffalo) that need to be addressed is kinda stupid and self defeating.

Who knows, maybe we sat through the SAME CRM class. But you do know that fatigue played a part in LIT, don't you?

Somebody else here with a sh1tload more experience than you and I BOTH have put together seemed to get it.

Nice touch of reality...........

And I'll say it AGAIN, since it's a point that many people just can't seem to grasp;

Point is, highly experienced pilots can kill people just as easily and quickly as those that aren't. It's been happening for years.

Sh1t can happen to ANYBODY, regardless of experience level.

 

[N813CA]

wow I am just impressed I got 3 pages of remarks on something I said being a smart A.. We are all human. I have flown with 30 year captains that scare the crap out of me. I have also flown with low time FO's at a different carrier and had a great time. The problem with the industry is we are all a number, and it doesn't matter to some level how good we are. We upgrade when are number is up. I have had many checkrides where I feel the captain shouldn't have gone past the oral but he does............................................

 

[acpilot]

This never would have happened if they had ATP's

 

[LazyLightnin']

wow I am just impressed I got 3 pages of remarks on something I said being a smart A.. We are all human. I have flown with 30 year captains that scare the crap out of me. I have also flown with low time FO's at a different carrier and had a great time. The problem with the industry is we are all a number, and it doesn't matter to some level how good we are. We upgrade when are number is up. I have had many checkrides where I feel the captain shouldn't have gone past the oral but he does............................................

Good points. The scary part is thinking of the zero 121 PIC time women getting hired at major airlines because of their gender. They will be captains one day and when that day comes God bless their FOs.

 

[acaTerry]

What about the kid in the car killed at Midway by Southwest and the F.O. at American stomping on the rudder ripping it off over NY?

Unless I have not read the latest findings, the FO in the American accident did exactly as trained....relied on the Airbus' "hard limits" of control deflection and used the rudder, just as trained.
The big point here is that you regional guys are like a bunch of little kids who love to cry out "Not my fault! Look what Johnny did!" rather than look at an accident, see where it is possible for YOU, yes you, to make the same mistake, and learn from it. Anyone, at any level can kill people in this business. It's time to get off your defensive positions and learn a thing or two.

 

[rigger]

Unless I have not read the latest findings, the FO in the American accident did exactly as trained....relied on the Airbus' "hard limits" of control deflection and used the rudder, just as trained.
The big point here is that you regional guys are like a bunch of little kids who love to cry out "Not my fault! Look what Johnny did!" rather than look at an accident, see where it is possible for YOU, yes you, to make the same mistake, and learn from it. Anyone, at any level can kill people in this business. It's time to get off your defensive positions and learn a thing or two.

Not just regional Terry.....NW overfly "it was the Controllers fault" DL landing on wrong runway...."it was the switch of runways fault" Or the good one was "it was there was no ils on that runway working" or better yet the US air "it was those damn birds fault" (wait that one was a good excuse) but you get the point! There is no "YOU REGIONAL GUYS OR YOU MAJOR GUYS.....we all screw up.....some worse than others! What I will not stand for nor ever except is lack of being a professional and being the best at our trade that we possibly can be....that means learning more stuff then what is in the Damn book!!!