Freedom furlough

[lineflyer1]

I talked with a Freedom Airlines pilot this weekend and he said they are getting ready to furlough 300 pilots.

Is that possible? Does Freedom have that many pilots, or was he perhaps referencing Mesa overall?

How many pilots work for Freedom?

 

[Long Time Gone]

I would venture to say that your friend could have meant either Freedom as a whole or Mesa. According to some quick research, Freedom operates a total of 34 ERJ-145s, of which 30 are Delta Connection, 3 "dedicated" to another operation, and 1 spare. A fleet of 34 aircraft requires 306 total pilots at the industry "norm" of 4.5 employees per seat position. With the DHC-8 flying going away in April, 16 aircraft on the Mesa side are overstaffed.

 

[dowhite2]

300 from Mesa Air Group as a whole, and correction to the last poster Freedom is operating 20 ERJs for Delta, the rest are subleased or in storage.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Thanks for the update. I don't work there, so can only go off of what I found.

 

[Metro752]

Freeeeedumb

Oh, MESA SUCKS!


yes!

 

[Full of LUV]

Wow how the times have changed....

300 from Mesa Air Group as a whole, and correction to the last poster Freedom is operating 20 ERJs for Delta, the rest are subleased or in storage.

Back in 2001 after being furloughed from a major, a MESA pilot told me right here on this very forum that I was foolish in not going to MESA as they will always have growth and business because that is the future.
I guess he failed to see the other competition.....

 

[Long Time Gone]

I hate it when that happens.

 

[johndog]

Back in 2001 after being furloughed from a major, a MESA pilot told me right here on this very forum that I was foolish in not going to MESA as they will always have growth and business because that is the future.
I guess he failed to see the other competition.....

Your Point?

 

[andyd]

Isn't Freedom the non-union airline that Mesa opened up to whipsaw against the Mesa ALPA pilots during contract negotiations? If so then I hope they are bearing the brunt of the furloughs and no I don't feel sorry for them. Despite what many of you think of Mesa as a company, their pilots are dues paying ALPA members who have been put through the ringer. They are no different than you or I, they took the first RJ job they could get and stuck with it to get the time to move onto to bigger and better pastures. If I am correct in my recollection of the start of Freedom, then they rank right up there with GoJets in my book.

If I am wrong, please correct me and accept my apology in advance. If not, enjoy unemployment as your furlough has just helped an ALPA member remain employed.

 

[brokedash]

Mesa pilots pretty much gave it all up in '05 to get Freedumb on the ALPA list.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Mesa pilots pretty much gave it all up in '05 to get Freedumb on the ALPA list.

Gave it all up... I didn't know they ever won anything to give up to begin with.

 

[dowhite2]

Isn't Freedom the non-union airline that Mesa opened up to whipsaw against the Mesa ALPA pilots during contract negotiations? If so then I hope they are bearing the brunt of the furloughs and no I don't feel sorry for them. Despite what many of you think of Mesa as a company, their pilots are dues paying ALPA members who have been put through the ringer. They are no different than you or I, they took the first RJ job they could get and stuck with it to get the time to move onto to bigger and better pastures. If I am correct in my recollection of the start of Freedom, then they rank right up there with GoJets in my book.

If I am wrong, please correct me and accept my apology in advance. If not, enjoy unemployment as your furlough has just helped an ALPA member remain employed.

That was the original Freedom operation started back I think 8-9 yrs ago. It was folded back into the Mesa operation shortly after it started with the combined contract/seniority list. The certificate was resurected in 2005 to fly ERJs for Delta Connection. Regardless of the politics surrounding the the original Freedom, this is a different group of guys entirely.

 

[johndog]

Isn't Freedom the non-union airline that Mesa opened up to whipsaw against the Mesa ALPA pilots during contract negotiations? If so then I hope they are bearing the brunt of the furloughs and no I don't feel sorry for them. Despite what many of you think of Mesa as a company, their pilots are dues paying ALPA members who have been put through the ringer. They are no different than you or I, they took the first RJ job they could get and stuck with it to get the time to move onto to bigger and better pastures. If I am correct in my recollection of the start of Freedom, then they rank right up there with GoJets in my book.

If I am wrong, please correct me and accept my apology in advance. If not, enjoy unemployment as your furlough has just helped an ALPA member remain employed.

You are correct about Freedom A. The current Freedom came about due to a scope clause that didn't allow Mesa to fly for Delta with aircraft as large as the crj900. So MESA management dusted off the Freedom certificate (had one 1900 on it to keep it alive) and put all of the ERJ's on it and that's how Freedom B, the current Freedom came to be. Flying for DELTA. Most of us couldn't believe that we were being put on this certificate that was universally known to be a whipsaw GoJet style operation. It was really unfair I felt.

And as a result I get to deal with fellow ALPA brothers who are;

IGNORANT, WHO DON'T TAKE THE TIME TO RESEARCH THEIR OPINIONS OR READ THEIR ALPA MAGAZINES!

Nobody who flys for the current Freedom B ever flew for or had anything to do with The Whipsaw freedom A. There is a list of Freedom A pilots. If you want to get one and hold these pilot responsible be my guest.

All Freedom pilots are ALPA and MESA Air group seniority list. Almost all of the Captains were MESA pilots based in Charlotte befor the merger of AWEST and UAIR. The only reason we even have to fly as Freedom was UAIR's pay to play with Air whisky- which took our flying due to JO's refusal to invest in the new combined company.

If I remember correctly we had asked DELTA and Comair's MEC's if they would allow us to fly for them on MESA's cert instead of Freedom. But our ALPA brother and sisters denied our MEC's request. Thanks.

Sorry if it appears I'm out of patience with this. But I am. The reality is I've taken all the slights, cold treatment and a$$hole comments on jumpseats that I'm going to take. All stemming from my fellow ALPA brothers ignorance.

 

[andyd]

Johndog et al: Here it is....a public apology. You are correct I was ignorant of the current Freedom and the pilot group and am sorry for my comments. I, as are many others, was under the incorrect impression that Freedom was still a non-union whipsaw airline being abused my corp. mesa. I am very and truly sorry that more Alpa members are being furloughed. The recession has hit bottom, advance bookings at all the majors have stopped the freefall and business fares are on the uptick for the first time in a year. Hopefully the newly furloughed will not be out for long.

 

[B.T.Justice]

If I remember correctly we had asked DELTA and Comair's MEC's if they would allow us to fly for them on MESA's cert instead of Freedom.

What the heck does the Comair MEC have to do with choosing what airplanes fly on Mesa's certificates?

 

[mesaserf]

What the heck does the Comair MEC have to do with choosing what airplanes fly on Mesa's certificates?

They have scope language that prohibits other code share airlines that have anything more than 70 seats to fly Delta colors. The Freedom cert acts as a fire wall preventing scope violation. About three or four years ago our MEC Chairman at the behest of JO asked if we could get scope relief from Big D's MEC to combine flying on one cert. This was to reduce operating costs.

 

[Fltlvls]

Gave it all up... I didn't know they ever won anything to give up to begin with.

The big gain was capturing scope and stopping Freedom A from taking over the Mesa flying which was happening in PHX. The Mesa guys that didn't go to Freedom would show up for their trip only to find out that their flight(s) had been "CXLD" and that flight would be given to a Freedom 700 or 900 and the company would not pay protect the Mesa guys.There was an instance in PHX where a Mesa pilot and Freedom pilot got into a fist fight on the ramp.If Freedom A had not been stopped,Mesa would have changed the company name to Freedom Airlines because they were literally stealing flying away from Mesa.

 

[sayrejm]

But what does any of this have to do with ASA? This is a flight info forum isn't it? Sorry, had to do it.

 

[Full of LUV]

Yes......

If I remember correctly we had asked DELTA and Comair's MEC's if they would allow us to fly for them on MESA's cert instead of Freedom. But our ALPA brother and sisters denied our MEC's request. Thanks.

Thats because your a "regional" that flies 100 seat aircraft (or used to) for dirt regionals. I agree that it's a sham that it's ok on a seperate certificate by the own company, but scopes gotta come into play somewhere.

 

[johndog]

What the heck does the Comair MEC have to do with choosing what airplanes fly on Mesa's certificates?

From what I remember It had to do with a scope clause that (at the time) only allowed certain wholly owned carriers to fly a perticular size aircraft for DELTA. Even though these 900's weren't going to fly (for) DELTA. In any event our fellow union members would not allow us to fly our (ERJ) aircraft on the MESA cert because of this. Which is why we are on the Freedom certificate and subject to the massive ammount of igorance that prevades our proffesion.

ps. I don't want to spend Thanksgiving explaining this any further to the glib who frequent this website-so let this thread die please.

Happy thanksgving

 

[dowhite2]

Thats because your a "regional" that flies 100 seat aircraft (or used to) for dirt regionals. I agree that it's a sham that it's ok on a seperate certificate by the own company, but scopes gotta come into play somewhere.

Nope, sorry Mesa does not operate (or has ever) 100 seaters. Largest aircraft is the CRJ900. 7 years ago management tried to start a 737-200 operation for CRJ900+20% rate which Mesa ALPA refused. The only reason why the CRJ900s are on property is because freedom was started as a non-union operation. Mesa pilots used all their "negotiating capital" during contract negotiations to fold Freedom into Mesa, create a master seniority list and end the whipsaw and the beginning of a GoJets/TSA like situation. So all flying was recaptured by Mesa from the non-union Freedom however the consequence was a really crappy contract.

But don't let facts and history that you're ignorant of get in the way of your judgement.

 

[CX880]

Mesa pilots used all their "negotiating capital" during contract negotiations to fold Freedom into Mesa, create a master seniority list and end the whipsaw and the beginning of a GoJets/TSA like situation. So all flying was recaptured by Mesa from the non-union Freedom however the consequence was a really crappy contract.

.

Probably the smartest move you guys made though for company growth. At least your MEC and pilots had the foresight of more than 6 months down the road. Not after they find out having 50+ seaters is the only way a company will be competitive.

 

[COOPERVANE]

They are no different than you or I, they took the first RJ job they could get and stuck with it to get the time to move onto to bigger and better pastures.

SO tired of hearing this comment....THEY COULDN'T BE MORE DIFFERENT THAN ME!!

Another entitlement generation attitude with a plan. "1000 PIC and I'm outta here!" THIS is the problem. You will NEVER understand this concept it seems.

Why is it so hard to believe there are pilots out there that WILL NOT take "The first RJ job they could get"?

If more people with SJS did not jump into "The first RJ job they could get" this industry would be a different landscape.

"The first RJ job they could get" should be engraved in the tombstone of the airline business

I had offers from 3 regionals. I didn't apply to any of the bottom feeder crap regionals. It took more time and patience to do it that way. I took the offer from what I thought was the best choice in case MY PLAN didn't come to fruition. I don't have ANY sympathy for anyone who took "The first RJ job they could get" and are now whining at being furloughed or STUCK in the right seat forever.

You reap what you sow. Like....Reality sucks dude

 

[dowhite2]

Hey Coppervane,

I see no one complaining for sympathy or whining on this thread. Just answering and informing and respectfully commenting until your post.

 

[johndog]

SO tired of hearing this comment....THEY COULDN'T BE MORE DIFFERENT THAN ME!!

Another entitlement generation attitude with a plan. "1000 PIC and I'm outta here!" THIS is the problem. You will NEVER understand this concept it seems.

Why is it so hard to believe there are pilots out there that WILL NOT take "The first RJ job they could get"?

If more people with SJS did not jump into "The first RJ job they could get" this industry would be a different landscape.

"The first RJ job they could get" should be engraved in the tombstone of the airline business

I had offers from 3 regionals. I didn't apply to any of the bottom feeder crap regionals. It took more time and patience to do it that way. I took the offer from what I thought was the best choice in case MY PLAN didn't come to fruition. I don't have ANY sympathy for anyone who took "The first RJ job they could get" and are now whining at being furloughed or STUCK in the right seat forever.

You reap what you sow. Like....Reality sucks dude

Well congrats on being the smartest guy in the room.


People go to work at different regionals for all different reasons. Some of the guys I fly with interviewed at Comair or Skywest but didn't get hired.
Some went to the San Juan program and didn't know anyone in aviation befor school. Others, MESA was about the only place hireing at the time they were coming up. Some were living in Florida when we were based there. Same in New York when we were their. A few, the smartest among us saw the quick upgrade and came here for that reason. There is nothing wrong with any of these decisions.

The only problem I personally have with any of our pilots is dureing contract negotiations. some guys not taking the time to educate themselves, and not holding there unions a$$ to the heat to represent us better (negotiating comitee).

What I don't understand is why the desicion on your part to
"hold out" for your favorite regional equates to your hatred of me and other guys and gals for working at MESA. The vitrol. If you don't work for an acceptable airline (in your opinion) you have no worth.

Crazy...

 

[COOPERVANE]

Thanks for the compliment.

I am not surprised you dont understand. You really dont see why "will fly for food" is a harmful attitude.

The "hate" I feel is the downward pressure dirtbag regionals put on top tier regionals such as Comair. Partly on the backs of pilots who "take the first RJ job they could get"

These pilots ALWAYS have an excuse.

1. no one else was hiring
2. I didn't know they were a crappy company
3. Thats who offered me a job first
4. I don't care. Just want my 1000PIC and I'm gone

 

[johndog]

Thanks for the compliment.

I am not surprised you dont understand. You really dont see why "will fly for food" is a harmful attitude.

The "hate" I feel is the downward pressure dirtbag regionals put on top tier regionals such as Comair. Partly on the backs of pilots who "take the first RJ job they could get"

These pilots ALWAYS have an excuse.

1. no one else was hiring
2. I didn't know they were a crappy company
3. Thats who offered me a job first
4. I don't care. Just want my 1000PIC and I'm gone

Well coopervane, I feel your rigidity is beyond my abilties/or my time to reason with. If what I and others have posted doesn't make any sense then I imagine you are a a bit of a lost cause. I feel bad for you and I supose you spend a lot of time wondering why know one else "gets it".
One last bit, our current contract, that I voted no on, puts us in the middle of the regional pack. But I'm sure that's not good enough, or too late, or something.

I would recommend less fox news channel.

Happy Thanksgiving,
Johndog

 

[dowhite2]

Thanks for the compliment.

The "hate" I feel is the downward pressure dirtbag regionals put on top tier regionals such as Comair. Partly on the backs of pilots who "take the first RJ job they could get"

Wait a second, you mean Comair the same company who got the first regional jet in the US, whose management opened pandora's box? That being said I have no ill will against any of their pilots but you are ignorant or stupid to think when any company in any industry opens up a new market for any product that competition will not come in and compete with you. That's simple microeconomics.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I feel bad for you and I supose you spend a lot of time wondering why know one else "gets it".

I have a lot of company. It seems a percentage on the regional board and virtually everyone on the majors board "gets" the very simple concept that the "will fly for food" attitude is bad for the entire industry.

Yea, this is all Comairs' fault

You may come around when you grow up.

 

[CX880]

virtually everyone on the majors board "gets" the very simple concept that the "will fly for food" attitude is bad for the entire industry.

Yea, this is all Comairs' fault

You may come around when you grow up.

BS. If they had a CRJ900 dangling in front of them at 600 hours they would take it too free food or not free food. But they didn't, they had J32s and Metros with union mandated pay which we're stuck with. We all like to preach from the highest soap box about what other should be doing. You obviously have no idea how the industry works this is post de-regulation, it's no more roses and daises with sunshine all around. We can't have 12 non bottom feeding Comairs, other wise they would eventually turn into bottom feeders as well. Cmaor cannot hire everyone, some of us GASP!!!, will have to work at the lower bottom feeders. So can I please get your permission for that your MR highly Comair pylot, as soon as I'm eligible I'll go and apply to Comair where I can make 27 thousand in JFK but with a smile so I won't be bottom feeding for you at the lowly regional outfits. Today's good airlines will be tomorows victims and vice verca. Look at Southwest and the Legacies. Expressjet and Skywest and Mesa.