"Senile" rides

[Dan Roman]

And I many a younger guy. I have doing line checks IOE and sims for most of my time . I just flew with 62 year old new to the 747-4 that was one of the sharpest guys I've ever flew with. Most of the guys my age that complain are just looking out for their own wallets, their complains have zero to do with older guys ability.In fact as they complain many are making the same or similar mistakes. Get used to it, at the airlines with no pension going to 65 will become the norm. As for me who knows what I'll do in 8 years but I had always planned on working past 60 and this just gives me the option as it will for lots of others.

Very well said. From my experience as a check airman and dealing with Professional Standards cases I would say these guys complaining about flying with "old guys" are themselve probably the weak link in the cockpit.
I've seen sharp pilots from all age and background demographics. Any breakdown in cockpit professionalism is almost always a result of both Captain AND F/O being at fault. It's a team and it takes two to let weak behavior become a problem. If one guy is making a mistake, the other can either rise to the occasion and not let the minor problem become a big one or he can be a butthead and make the situation worse than it has to be.
One thing for sure, if a guy is having multiple problems with fellow crewmembers, he needs to look in the mirror to find the source of his problems, not at someones birth certificate.

 

[Dan Roman]

Pardner, for the love of all that is holy, you need to video some of their sleeping on the flight deck and post it to youtube...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125504526670974763.html

Amazing you could even think like that. You are throwing stones at an older generation, yet you have just demonstrated remarkable pettiness and immaturity.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Very well said. From my experience as a check airman and dealing with Professional Standards cases I would say these guys complaining about flying with "old guys" are themselve probably the weak link in the cockpit.
I've seen sharp pilots from all age and background demographics. Any breakdown in cockpit professionalism is almost always a result of both Captain AND F/O being at fault. It's a team and it takes two to let weak behavior become a problem. If one guy is making a mistake, the other can either rise to the occasion and not let the minor problem become a big one or he can be a butthead and make the situation worse than it has to be.
One thing for sure, if a guy is having multiple problems with fellow crewmembers, he needs to look in the mirror to find the source of his problems, not at someones birth certificate.

Very good post, I fly with over 60 guys often out here and I find them to be as proficient airmen as the next guy.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I've heard that the FAA is instituting a cognative test for over 60'ers. It's going to be a memory based test that will be part of your FAA first class medical.

Would that include flight instruction, charter flying, corporate flying, crop dusting or test flying?

OR would that just be for Part 121 Pilots? If it is...I see legal folks getting involved...

...Or...could this just be wishful thinking on your part? In the age 65 discussions, I can recall the Federal Air Surgeon saying that the medical standards would not change.

Is this really a problem, or is it only a problem on FlightInfo.com ?

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I do it every other week to Asia. I am getting tired of the baby sitting.

It has gotten to the point of needing to fill-out an FSAP report after each leg.

You need to "Man-up" and go in to the Chiefs office and tell them what you just posted. You are tired of the "babysitting". Have names, dates, times and details of incidents. All that stuff helps your case.

Also have copies of all the FSAP(?) reports that you are filling out on each leg.

Let us know how it goes. When do you fly again? Let us know so we can look forward to your post on how this was handled.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Is this really a problem, or is it only a problem on FlightInfo.com ?

As I have said before, this is only an issue because of the current state of the industry and If the airlines would be hiring 80+ like prior to 9/11 you wouldn't hear a peep from anyone. When you hear "I'd love to see a study done on a group of 64 year olds " it only means "I'm frustrated with my upgrade being pushed a few more years" The so called concern with the flying public safety is hypocrisy at it's best

 

[Father Jack]

Controlled rest on the flight deck means that you are alert from TOD to shutdown. So why not take 30 mins during cruise if it helps? I'm sure the FAA, and Randy, know it's the right thing to do.
I snooze at some point on almost every flight.

 

[starshipdrvr]

Let the age 60 guys stay. I just flew with a 62 year old and he was one of the best pilots I've flown with in a long time. Stop with the age discrimination already. . .

 

[scoreboardII]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125504526670974763.html

Amazing you could even think like that. You are throwing stones at an older generation, yet you have just demonstrated remarkable pettiness and immaturity.

Uh, no where did I say "you older generation" or anything age related? Dan "old guy" Roman, go read it again with your glasses on. What I said was take the pictures of the folks sleeping, no mention of age anywhere in my post. I to have flown with some sharp 59 year olds, and some sleeping 59 year olds. Lighten up Francis.

 

[jmreii]

Very well said. From my experience as a check airman and dealing with Professional Standards cases I would say these guys complaining about flying with "old guys" are themselve probably the weak link in the cockpit.
I've seen sharp pilots from all age and background demographics. Any breakdown in cockpit professionalism is almost always a result of both Captain AND F/O being at fault. It's a team and it takes two to let weak behavior become a problem. If one guy is making a mistake, the other can either rise to the occasion and not let the minor problem become a big one or he can be a butthead and make the situation worse than it has to be.
One thing for sure, if a guy is having multiple problems with fellow crewmembers, he needs to look in the mirror to find the source of his problems, not at someones birth certificate.

Well stated

 

[pilotyip]

Is this a "Safety" or a "Get the heck out of my seat issue"? Did we never have an-in-flight incapacitation prior to the age 65 rule? Was anything done then to reduce the age of a pilot? How about a rule we lower the retirement age to the age of the last pilot whom had the in-flight incapacitation. If he was 58 years old then that will be the new retirement. If the next guy is 48 that becomes the new retirement. That would really be the safest way to do it. Wouldn’t it? Age 60 was forced on the pilots back in 1958. ALPA was still fighting to get it repealed up until about 1970. This rule had nothing to do with safety; it was a deal between two W.W.II USAF Generals, AAL's C.R. Smith and Pete Quesada (sp.?) the first head of the FAA. It was to get rid of high paid pilots at the top of AAL the seniority list. It was done in the name of safety, because who can be against safety. It is like motherhood and patriotism

 

[Father Jack]

yip:
We all know what this is about: Upgrades being delayed. But age 60 worked for years, why change it? As for safety, why can't two old-timers fly together?
I just did a trip with a 61 year old: He was very "switched on" and wide awake. It would be a shame to lose someone like that, but if moves me up the list...

 

[pilotyip]

all prespective

yip:
We all know what this is about: Upgrades being delayed. But age 60 worked for years, why change it? As for safety, why can't two old-timers fly together?
I just did a trip with a 61 year old: He was very "switched on" and wide awake. It would be a shame to lose someone like that, but if moves me up the list...

How about before 1958, that also worked for years, why go back to 1959 and not 1957

 

[FoxHunter]

As for safety, why can't two old-timers fly together?

Actually that restriction applies only to international flights. If ICAO changes the rule in the future that restriction will cease to exist.

Sec. 44729. Age standards for pilots

(a) In General- Subject to the limitation in subsection (c), a pilot may serve in multicrew covered operations until attaining 65 years of age.

(b) Covered Operations Defined- In this section, the term `covered operations' means operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations.

(c) Limitation for International Flights-

(1) APPLICABILITY OF ICAO STANDARD- A pilot who has attained 60 years of age may serve as pilot-in-command in covered operations between the United States and another country only if there is another pilot in the flight deck crew who has not yet attained 60 years of age.

(2) SUNSET OF LIMITATION- Paragraph (1) shall cease to be effective on such date as the Convention on International Civil Aviation provides that a pilot who has attained 60 years of age may serve as pilot-in-command in international commercial operations without regard to whether there is another pilot in the flight deck crew who has not attained age 60.

 

[Father Jack]

Actually that restriction applies only to international flights.

No foolin?

 

[dashtrash]

Very well said. From my experience as a check airman and dealing with Professional Standards....QUOTE]

When the first words out of a guys mouth are "I'm a check airman" run the other way. Get over yourself.

 

[Penguin46]

Senile is the way to go

Have any one heard of this. I was told it was part of the deal to change the retirement age. Once a year after 60 you have to take a special eval ride or test. I heard UAL is doing it and guys are starting to fail. Any one else hear this or was I getting my yanky yanked?

The fact I'm still in this industry is a testiment to my early onset of senility; but live has never been better.

 

[Dan Roman]

deleted

 

[Dan Roman]

When the first words out of a guys mouth are "I'm a check airman" run the other way. Get over yourself.

Well you have a good point. I didn't even think of "Being a check airman" in the context of what you are saying until you mentioned it. I just mentioned Pro Stans and the training because it means I have had a lot of exposure with the way crews interact.

 

[Formula 1]

Senior first Officers should give the "Senile" checkride to their favorite Captains! First Officers would be fair and impartial of course compared to another over 60 check-airman.