"Senile" rides

[bluefin]

Have any one heard of this. I was told it was part of the deal to change the retirement age. Once a year after 60 you have to take a special eval ride or test. I heard UAL is doing it and guys are starting to fail. Any one else hear this or was I getting my yanky yanked?

 

[Quimby]

I think a lawyer would have a field day with that on the age discrimination basis.

 

[bluefin]

I think a lawyer would have a field day with that on the age discrimination basis.

But............ isn't setting an arbitrary age like, 65, discrimination?

 

[shearedshaft]

they do require an additional line check post 60, I think once every six months, instead of once per year. This might be the "senile ride" you're talking about.

 

[wmuflyguy]

wouldn't they be getting a yearly (or nearly yearly) checkride regardless?

 

[Quimby]

But............ isn't setting an arbitrary age like, 65, discrimination?

I'm not defending it. Check the geezermeter if you want to see where I stand on the age change.

 

[Whataburger]

But............ isn't setting an arbitrary age like, 65, discrimination?

65 - yes.
60 - no.

 

[ual321]

"Senile" rides.

I do it every other week to Asia. I am getting tired of the baby sitting.

It has gotten to the point of needing to fill-out an FSAP report after each leg.

 

[JumpersAway]

I've heard that the FAA is instituting a cognative test for over 60'ers. It's going to be a memory based test that will be part of your FAA first class medical. Glad to see this coming!

 

[scoreboardII]

I do it every other week to Asia. I am getting tired of the baby sitting.

It has gotten to the point of needing to fill-out an FSAP report after each leg.

Pardner, for the love of all that is holy, you need to video some of their sleeping on the flight deck and post it to youtube...

 

[CRJ puppy]

I've heard that the FAA is instituting a cognative test for over 60'ers. It's going to be a memory based test that will be part of your FAA first class medical. Glad to see this coming!

I'm sorry...what were we talking about?

 

[densoo]

Key provisions of the Act include the following:
• As of 12/13/07, part 121, § 121.383(c), specifying age 60, ceases to be effective.
• A pilot age 60+ acting as pilot in command (PIC) in international operations must be paired with a pilot under age 60 (consistent with the current ICAO requirement).
• In domestic operations both pilots may be age 60+.
• It permits the continued employment of a pilot who reaches age 60 on or after 12/13/07.
• It permits the employment as a new-hire a pilot who reached age 60 before 12/13/07.
• A pilot age 60+ will not be subjected to different, greater, or more frequent medical exams.
• Any pilot age 60+ must hold a first-class medical certificate, renewable on a 6-month cycle.
• Any air carrier employing pilots age 60+ must adjust its training program to ensure such pilots’ skill and judgment continue at acceptable levels.
• Any pilot age 60+ must undergo a line check at 6-month intervals.
• For a pilot age 60+ acting as second in command (SIC), a regularly scheduled simulator evaluation may substitute for a required line check.

Over 60 pilots get more checkrides and may be slower on the uptake. Those FOs senior enough will bid away from them. Over time, the over sixty guys are flying with more and more junior pilots. Makes sense that between the age and more junior FOs they fly with, having a check airman on board may be more problematic than typical.

I can tell you at one carrier, some of these over 60 were getting line checks every 4 to 5 months. They carrier didn't want to miss the six month check due to scheduling issues, so they have an "early month" that sometimes even went a month earlier than that. The "six month" requirement was interpreted as you can't go six months without a check. It established a "drop dead" date. So if you get a check at the 5-month point, you have to get another one 6 months later or, if in the "early month," just five months later. That's two in 10 months. If you get an occasional even earlier, you could have two in 8 months, maybe three in 12 months.

Over age-60 busts could just be a matter of the increased number checkrides rather than them them doing worse than under 60 pilots. For example, if out of every 100 checkrides there is a bust, a group of over 60 pilots will reach 100 checkrides sooner than a group of under 60 pilots because they're taking checkrides at double the rate. They may be failing more, but it is because they are exposed to an eval at twice the rate.

 

[filejw]

I do it every other week to Asia. I am getting tired of the baby sitting.

It has gotten to the point of needing to fill-out an FSAP report after each leg.

Kinda funny me too except I'm talking about 45 yr old FO's and I'm not close to 60...

 

[Bringupthebird]

How many Check Airmen are over 60?

 

[dispatchguy]

Pardner, for the love of all that is holy, you need to video some of their sleeping on the flight deck and post it to youtube...

Especially when their head is laying back, mouth wide open like in a death pose, with a river of drool heading towards the floor.....

Good loud snoring is good too

 

[filejw]

Especially when their head is laying back, mouth wide open like in a death pose, with a river of drool heading towards the floor.....

Good loud snoring is good too

I could do that for lots of ages over the last 20 yrs, in-fact a real young guy was doing it on a crj I was J/s seating on the few months ago. Careful what you wish for.

 

[AA717driver]

The age 60+ guys are sleeping in the seat because they were up all night chasing wh0res and drinking whiskey. Unlike you goody-two-shoes New Age punks.



TC

 

[C-150ETOPS]

All ages will nod off and drool on the long haul overnight flights.

The problem is that even with extra sim or line checks. Most of the geezers will slide past because any sim ride is usually done at 10 am after a coffee with a fellow 60+ geezer, and on the line checks, the unusual things that cause problems for the geezers probably won't happen.

From my perspective, it is a safety problem due to a slow reduction in decison making skills and a diminishing resistance to fatigue. I'd love to see a study done on a group of 64 year olds on the 4th day of a long sequence that is delayed and results in a 14+ hour duty day into LGA at 3am in complete crap winter weather.

I've seen enough goats that should have retired before age 60.

 

[filejw]

All ages will nod off and drool on the long haul overnight flights.

The problem is that even with extra sim or line checks. Most of the geezers will slide past because any sim ride is usually done at 10 am after a coffee with a fellow 60+ geezer, and on the line checks, the unusual things that cause problems for the geezers probably won't happen.

From my perspective, it is a safety problem due to a slow reduction in decison making skills and a diminishing resistance to fatigue. I'd love to see a study done on a group of 64 year olds on the 4th day of a long sequence that is delayed and results in a 14+ hour duty day into LGA at 3am in complete crap winter weather.

I've seen enough goats that should have retired before age 60.

And I many a younger guy. I have doing line checks IOE and sims for most of my time . I just flew with 62 year old new to the 747-4 that was one of the sharpest guys I've ever flew with. Most of the guys my age that complain are just looking out for their own wallets, their complains have zero to do with older guys ability.In fact as they complain many are making the same or similar mistakes. Get used to it, at the airlines with no pension going to 65 will become the norm. As for me who knows what I'll do in 8 years but I had always planned on working past 60 and this just gives me the option as it will for lots of others.

 

[Jar Jar]

working past 60 sounds exciting. Nothing like retiring and dying a year later with tons of money in the bank. You showed them!

 

[Dan Roman]

And I many a younger guy. I have doing line checks IOE and sims for most of my time . I just flew with 62 year old new to the 747-4 that was one of the sharpest guys I've ever flew with. Most of the guys my age that complain are just looking out for their own wallets, their complains have zero to do with older guys ability.In fact as they complain many are making the same or similar mistakes. Get used to it, at the airlines with no pension going to 65 will become the norm. As for me who knows what I'll do in 8 years but I had always planned on working past 60 and this just gives me the option as it will for lots of others.

Very well said. From my experience as a check airman and dealing with Professional Standards cases I would say these guys complaining about flying with "old guys" are themselve probably the weak link in the cockpit.
I've seen sharp pilots from all age and background demographics. Any breakdown in cockpit professionalism is almost always a result of both Captain AND F/O being at fault. It's a team and it takes two to let weak behavior become a problem. If one guy is making a mistake, the other can either rise to the occasion and not let the minor problem become a big one or he can be a butthead and make the situation worse than it has to be.
One thing for sure, if a guy is having multiple problems with fellow crewmembers, he needs to look in the mirror to find the source of his problems, not at someones birth certificate.

 

[Dan Roman]

Pardner, for the love of all that is holy, you need to video some of their sleeping on the flight deck and post it to youtube...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125504526670974763.html

Amazing you could even think like that. You are throwing stones at an older generation, yet you have just demonstrated remarkable pettiness and immaturity.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Very well said. From my experience as a check airman and dealing with Professional Standards cases I would say these guys complaining about flying with "old guys" are themselve probably the weak link in the cockpit.
I've seen sharp pilots from all age and background demographics. Any breakdown in cockpit professionalism is almost always a result of both Captain AND F/O being at fault. It's a team and it takes two to let weak behavior become a problem. If one guy is making a mistake, the other can either rise to the occasion and not let the minor problem become a big one or he can be a butthead and make the situation worse than it has to be.
One thing for sure, if a guy is having multiple problems with fellow crewmembers, he needs to look in the mirror to find the source of his problems, not at someones birth certificate.

Very good post, I fly with over 60 guys often out here and I find them to be as proficient airmen as the next guy.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I've heard that the FAA is instituting a cognative test for over 60'ers. It's going to be a memory based test that will be part of your FAA first class medical.

Would that include flight instruction, charter flying, corporate flying, crop dusting or test flying?

OR would that just be for Part 121 Pilots? If it is...I see legal folks getting involved...

...Or...could this just be wishful thinking on your part? In the age 65 discussions, I can recall the Federal Air Surgeon saying that the medical standards would not change.

Is this really a problem, or is it only a problem on FlightInfo.com ?

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I do it every other week to Asia. I am getting tired of the baby sitting.

It has gotten to the point of needing to fill-out an FSAP report after each leg.

You need to "Man-up" and go in to the Chiefs office and tell them what you just posted. You are tired of the "babysitting". Have names, dates, times and details of incidents. All that stuff helps your case.

Also have copies of all the FSAP(?) reports that you are filling out on each leg.

Let us know how it goes. When do you fly again? Let us know so we can look forward to your post on how this was handled.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Is this really a problem, or is it only a problem on FlightInfo.com ?

As I have said before, this is only an issue because of the current state of the industry and If the airlines would be hiring 80+ like prior to 9/11 you wouldn't hear a peep from anyone. When you hear "I'd love to see a study done on a group of 64 year olds " it only means "I'm frustrated with my upgrade being pushed a few more years" The so called concern with the flying public safety is hypocrisy at it's best

 

[Father Jack]

Controlled rest on the flight deck means that you are alert from TOD to shutdown. So why not take 30 mins during cruise if it helps? I'm sure the FAA, and Randy, know it's the right thing to do.
I snooze at some point on almost every flight.

 

[starshipdrvr]

Let the age 60 guys stay. I just flew with a 62 year old and he was one of the best pilots I've flown with in a long time. Stop with the age discrimination already. . .

 

[scoreboardII]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125504526670974763.html

Amazing you could even think like that. You are throwing stones at an older generation, yet you have just demonstrated remarkable pettiness and immaturity.

Uh, no where did I say "you older generation" or anything age related? Dan "old guy" Roman, go read it again with your glasses on. What I said was take the pictures of the folks sleeping, no mention of age anywhere in my post. I to have flown with some sharp 59 year olds, and some sleeping 59 year olds. Lighten up Francis.

 

[jmreii]

Very well said. From my experience as a check airman and dealing with Professional Standards cases I would say these guys complaining about flying with "old guys" are themselve probably the weak link in the cockpit.
I've seen sharp pilots from all age and background demographics. Any breakdown in cockpit professionalism is almost always a result of both Captain AND F/O being at fault. It's a team and it takes two to let weak behavior become a problem. If one guy is making a mistake, the other can either rise to the occasion and not let the minor problem become a big one or he can be a butthead and make the situation worse than it has to be.
One thing for sure, if a guy is having multiple problems with fellow crewmembers, he needs to look in the mirror to find the source of his problems, not at someones birth certificate.

Well stated