Engine failure on takeoff and between V2 and Vyse

[Checks]

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Engine failure occurs on takeoff and your airspeed is between V2 and Vyse. Lets call V2 115 and Vyse 135. Your speed when the engine fails is 125. Do you:

1. Pitch to V2 and maintain until 500ft (is how plane was certified)
2. Maintain 125 until 500ft.

What if failures occurs on takeoff and the speed is 140.
1. Pitch to V2
2. Pitch to Vyse

Our AFM only says to maintain V2 until clear of obstacles.

 

[cezzna]

You're mixing VYSE and V2. Two different certifications altogether. Apples and Oranges.

 

[K.V.]

For all practical purposes, V2 and Vyse are the same thing.

 

[Checks]

Thanks for the input but the question remains to be answered still.

 

[K.V.]

Thanks for the input but the question remains to be answered still.

That's because an answerable question remains to be asked.

If you loose an engine below 500 feet, all of you numbers are predicated on pitching upto and climbing at V2.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Depends on the airplane.

On the Falcon you hold "V-That" (i.e. if the engine bombs you don't slow back to V2 you stay where you are). On the ERJ/ECJ aim for V2 even if if you need to slow back to it (some operators apparently don't do this).

It depends on the manufacturer/airframe. What plane are you asking about? I always thought V2 was Best Angle and Vfs was Best Rate for all practical purposes.

That's because an answerable question remains to be asked.

LOL

 

[guido411]

Are you sure you're not confusing V2 and Vfs? If so. . .


-Pitch for V2 (even if it means you slow down)
-SECOND SEGMENT Maintain V2 until 400' (end of second segment in Part 25 airplane) or clear of obstacles, whichever comes last
-THIRD SEGMENT Accelerate to flap retract speed (V2+10) and retract flaps
-FOURTH SEGMENT Continue climb at single-engine enroute climb speed to finish takeoff

Declare, checklist, return, land, beers, yadda yadda yadda. . .

 

[avbug]

That really depends on the operation, type of aircraft, and the situation. Conventionally if it's a Part 25 aircraft with traditional training, then it's obstacles cleared or 400', whichever is higher...and this segment is predicated on maintaining V2.

V2 is not Vyse.

At one of my jobs, the program is to maintain V2 until 800' or obstacles cleared...and then level off at that altitude, accelerating, and cleaning up the airplane.

Our normal departure involves V2 all the way to 3,000 AGL, then accelerating and cleaning up. It's modified with an engine-out to level at lower altitude.

As for sacrificing additional airspeed in favor of maintaining V2, the Part 25 second segment climb performance is based on maintaining the calculated V2 speed. Our own policy allows up to V2+10, and if we have the extra ten knots, we won't bleed it off trying to get back to V2...but the numbers are calculated upon maintaining V2.

If you're got stellar climb performance, no obstacle departure to worry about, and are already well past V2, then perhaps ou don't need to worry about slowing up. You'll have to make that call in real time...just know that your published numbers aren't predicated on making up your own program, but upon maintaining V2 until at least 400', or clear of obstacles, which ever is higher.

 

[Checks]

Thanks, it is a SA-227.

I was curious what the norm was for diffierent airframes/operators. In my company there are two schools of thought:

1st school - If above Vyse then pitch to slow to Vyse. If below Vyse then pitch for V2.

2nd - always pitch to V2.

 

[pilotyip]

Vx

For all practical purposes, V2 and Vyse are the same thing.

Actually V2 is similar to Vxse. You maintainV2 to obtain a 2.4% net climb ratio, then accell to Vfr and climb out at Vfs (final segment) which is similar to Vyse

 

[DrProc]

Thanks, it is a SA-227.

I was curious what the norm was for diffierent airframes/operators. In my company there are two schools of thought:

1st school - If above Vyse then pitch to slow to Vyse. If below Vyse then pitch for V2.

2nd - always pitch to V2.

This difference in thought reared its ugly head when the AA DC-10 crashed in Chicago. When the engine removed itself from the airplane, it took out some hydraulic lines which caused the slats to retract. When they retracted, the stall speed on that wing increased. The airplane at this point was above V2 and was flying but the airplane was pitched to V2 and that wing stalled, causing the airplane to roll. I don't know if it has been proven but many people believe that if the airplane was kept at V2+whatever, then that wing wouldn't have stalled.

 

[K.V.]

Actually V2 is similar to Vxse. You maintainV2 to obtain a 2.4% net climb ratio, then accell to Vfr and climb out at Vfs (final segment) which is similar to Vyse

That makes more sense. I stand corrected.

 

[gear_guy]

In said scenario in the gulfstream IV you would hold V2+10 (125kts) until reaching 1500ft. or terrain clearance.

 

[SpaceBall 1]

If I am below the obstacles, I'll pitch for and climb out at V2. If I am above the obstacles then it will be Vfs or Venr in the Citation world.

 

[guido411]

Actually V2 is similar to Vxse. You maintainV2 to obtain a 2.4% net climb ratio, then accell to Vfr and climb out at Vfs (final segment) which is similar to Vyse

Close, but it's 2.4% gross which is 1.6% net climb gradient.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

This difference in thought reared its ugly head when the AA DC-10 crashed in Chicago. When the engine removed itself from the airplane, it took out some hydraulic lines which caused the slats to retract. When they retracted, the stall speed on that wing increased. The airplane at this point was above V2 and was flying but the airplane was pitched to V2 and that wing stalled, causing the airplane to roll. I don't know if it has been proven but many people believe that if the airplane was kept at V2+whatever, then that wing wouldn't have stalled.

Yep. I was told the same story in sim recurrent once. Just "hold" what you have at the time things went Tango Uniform. I think it is a good policy. On the other hand, if I am in "the soup" and in "the rocks", pitching to V2 would be wise. As with all things in aviation, the real answer is: it depends on the situation

 

[uncle_rico]

I had this happen just a few weeks ago. The right engine came apart just after I called for gear up on take-off.

We were just a few hundred pounds below max take-off weight.

Technically I should have pitched to V2 but since it was VFR I kept the configuration the same (gear-up/flaps 20) and entered left closed traffic and landed without further issue.

One of the things I tried to teach as an instructor in the airline world was we get so wrapped up in the minutia of procedures (in and of itself not bad sometimes) that we forget the over riding theme is to get the aircraft safely on the ground after and emergency occurs.

My two eyes were the best obstacle clearance tools at that time.

 

[ultrarunner]

Yep, we were taught the same at the airlines...accept whatever IAS is at the time of the OEI, if above V2, and fly that speed. IAS was a callout to the NFP.

If I recall, the only deviation from this was if a V2 speed was specifically assigned for a SDP, and you had not passed the point where a higher speed was dictated.