Barnstormers Aerial Advertising

[doog]

Whether the flight carries freight is of course, irrelevant. That it's a night cross country flight in a single engine airplane, or IMC in a single engine airplane, is very relevant, and yes, it most certainly can be a dangerous undertaking. There's really nothing in aviation which creates a greater workload than single pilot IFR/IMC. Add to this single vacum pump, single generator, single engine, in clouds and ice without radar and the potential for embedded weather...yes, it's dangerous, and it's a gamble.

Thanks, that is a perfectly logical line of reasoning. To be clear, I was trying to reconcile that with this section:

I don't consider flying dangerous. I do consider many pilots to be dangerous, and they tend to put the risk in certain assignments. Banner towing, for example is not dangerous, unless it is undertaken by a dangerous pilot. It then becomes dangerous: not because the assignment is difficult or full or risk (because it isn't). It's simply that the pilot, doubting his own abilities and unequal to the task, is insufficient to perform his duty, and therefore dangerous. Accordingly, he believes the job to be dangerous in error, and through his belief, makes it so. A self-fulfilling prophesy, where all it takes is an inadequate pilot to turn a safe and benign task such as picking up and dropping a simple banner into a *dangerous* event.

 

[AirplanesSuck]

Avbug must be screwing with people...he argued and argued with me that navy seals placing underwater explosives wasn't dangerous.

Yeesh.

 

[AirplanesSuck]

There's no contradiction whatsoever.

Absolute and utter nonsense.

 

[nismo611]

HAAAAA this is craziness that avbug is a fool. He just likes arguments he doesn't care if he is right or wrong. The sky is purple, grass is red, and avbug is awesome.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

HAAAAA this is craziness that avbug is a fool. He just likes arguments he doesn't care if he is right or wrong. The sky is purple, grass is red, and avbug is awesome.

You must not be a good enough pilot to appreciate his greatness.

Anyway, whoever thinks single pilot night IFR is dangerous, must not be a good pilot. Probably blames systems failures on banner pilots.

CE

 

[AirplanesSuck]

Yes sir... Avbug has just shown us his lack of aviation prowess by his admission.

The tool is not dangerous, nor is the task... just the pilot who isn't up to it.

 

[avbug]

Thanks, that is a perfectly logical line of reasoning. To be clear, I was trying to reconcile that with this section:

There's nothing to reconcile. Flying of it's own accord is not dangerous. It's the pilot who makes it so.

When towing a banner, the failure of a generator poses no problem whatsoever. The failure of a powerplant results in a forced landing during daylight conditions, and a reasonable pilot will have already noted a forced landing site long before the engine ever quits. A vacum pump failure poses no controllability problems, and one does not tow a banner in the ice. One does not tow a banner in the clouds, and lack of radar is of no consequence because one does not tow banners under conditions in which it might be of benefit. Towing a banner, from takeoff to pickup to the tow to the release and drop and subsequent landing, is one of the most simple, most safe things one can do with a working airplane.

Flying single pilot IFR is one of the single most demanding, highest workload environments which a pilot can undertake. Single pilot IFR, in IMC, in a single engine piston airplane, particularly one with a single electrical and single vacum source, no airborne radar, limited or no deice and anti-ice capability, limited performance, and no autopilot, is not only highly demanding, but is an exercise in taking nearly every possible hazard one can face in the business, and stacking them all on one flight with limited or no alternative options.

Yes, the pilot makes that flight dangerous too...by undertaking the flight.

You noted my previous commentary in other threads regarding single engine piston IFR operations, and if you've read over it at all, you'll know that I don't advocate, support, or do those operations. The operation itself poses no hazard, and no risk, so long as it's not undertaken...it's the pilot that elects to accept risk, and to create a dangerous flight. The pilot can do a lot to ensure the safety of the flight, starting with an adequate preflight. However, the pilot can do more by ensuring the flight goes in the daylight in visual conditions, and ensures such routing and operation that he can secure the airplane in the event of a powerplant failure, electrical failure, or other problem which may arise.

This is of no event when towing a banner. As previously, it's of no consequence and poses no danger at all unless the pilot elects to make it dangerous. A flight from A to B in a single engine airplane is just the same. The act of going from A to B, of it's own accord, not a problem. The pilot who complicates it by undertaking the flight in an airplane with limited options and performance, and who does so with limited alternatives in equipment and redundancy paints himself into a corner, and thus makes the flight dangerous. Again, it falls back to the pilot.

 

[AirplanesSuck]

Wow. Lots more paragraphs to explain to everyone that he's a bumbling, double-talking goofball.

Are there risks? No. Yes. Maybe. Depends on the pilot. YOU ARE ALL WRONG! Bow before Avbug's greatness. When he sets foot on Mars in a not-at-all-dangerous mission and claims the planet for himself, we're all doomed. But simply because of our own incompetence.

 

[doog]

This is of no event when towing a banner. As previously, it's of no consequence and poses no danger at all unless the pilot elects to make it dangerous. A flight from A to B in a single engine airplane is just the same. The act of going from A to B, of it's own accord, not a problem. The pilot who complicates it by undertaking the flight in an airplane with limited options and performance, and who does so with limited alternatives in equipment and redundancy paints himself into a corner, and thus makes the flight dangerous. Again, it falls back to the pilot.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Of course I agree that it always comes back to the pilot, and legal and safe are not always aligned.

 

[nismo611]

You must not be a good enough pilot to appreciate his greatness.

Anyway, whoever thinks single pilot night IFR is dangerous, must not be a good pilot. Probably blames systems failures on banner pilots.

CE

Jeesh I think dual pilot VFR day is scary as hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God, I need a less scary occupation. Maybe I could open an ice cream shop that seems low risk.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Jeesh I think dual pilot VFR day is scary as hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God, I need a less scary occupation. Maybe I could open an ice cream shop that seems low risk.

..and risk the dreaded "Brain Freeze"?!?!?!?

*shivers*

Too risky for me.

Ask Buggy, he's the man for the job!

CE

 

[labbutt]

didnt read all of these posts, however, i flew for barnstormers in the summer of 2004. i did not pay for training, and was paid $13/hour for every hour i had a sign up. Had a blast in myrtle beach! showed up each morning in shorts and flip flops, and flew all day. I think 600 hours in 3 months. The planes were fine. Towing is certainly more dangerous than many other flying jobs. In the summer of 2005, Sky Signs sadly lost one in a training accident, killing the instructor and the student. Also in 2005, Barnstormers had one lose a motor and had a water landing just offshore(no injury). All in all great experience, but convince DR that you shouldnt be paying for training, much less 3500.

 

[AirplanesSuck]

Towing is certainly more dangerous than many other flying jobs.

Uh-oh...

Standby for AvBuggery....

 

[bizjet800]

Uh-oh...

Standby for AvBuggery....

Yep! The son of Forrest Gump and the Grandson of Rainman is formulating his response.

 

[Super_Cub_2414P]

I towed in 14Papa for many hundreds of hours in 1999, I did pay $1500. for training.. but they teach you how to safely do the job and not kill yourself, nothing dangerous about towing banners if you're in a Super Cub and have the proper training.

I have a good job, I mean career now flying rich folks in little jets, but I am considering towing banners on my days off, fun stuff.