Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Frontier/SWA

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
D

Dan Roman

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2004
Posts
2,815
A precedence has been set that might be applicable here. When CO bought PeopleExpress they stapled the Captains to the bottom of the Captains list and everyone else to the bottom of the list. The PE pilots sued and won a more fair integration. The courts agreed you can't staple anyone and get away with it. At least that's my recollection of it.
My perception of the reason the TWA guys got screwed was they agreed to not fight it in court. The thinking, I guess was that if they didn't agree to AA's terms they were gone.
Food for thought anyway
 
Sounds like SWA is going to run both airlines for a stint then phase out Frontier. THEN the Frontier employees can interview for their positions. SWA is very protective of their brand and culture. Don't think the pilots of Frontier suddenly won the lottery.
 
I think you may be right. Just seems to me that they might consider fighting this. The scenario you described essentially turns over their assets to SWA but not their asses. (Sorry, couldn't resist!)
 
DH2WN said:
Sounds like SWA is going to run both airlines for a stint then phase out Frontier. THEN the Frontier employees can interview for their positions. SWA is very protective of their brand and culture. Don't think the pilots of Frontier suddenly won the lottery.
Click to expand...

Dont bet on it. I wish the F9 pilots the best of luck. If F9 plays there cards right they will be very happy. JMO
 
Actually, if you consider the RAH alternative, F9 pilots DID win the lottery.
 
SWAPA is the "house" and holds all the "cards." House always wins.
 
More important than anything, If we do somehow integrate 1 or all of the Frontier pilots, Welcome aboard. I buy the first beer.

SWA F/O
 
DH2WN said:
Sounds like SWA is going to run both airlines for a stint then phase out Frontier. THEN the Frontier employees can interview for their positions. SWA is very protective of their brand and culture. Don't think the pilots of Frontier suddenly won the lottery.
Click to expand...

With this logic, the two most junior F9 pilots will be senior to the most senior F9 captains when all is said and done. This way does not pass the smell test.
 
He is saying that as F9 shrinks the junior-most pilot will be the first to be furloughed, and then hired by WN. Conversely the most senior F9 pilot will be the last out and therefore the last to be hired at WN, thus inverting the seniority list at Frontier.
 
Not necessarily. They could give all the F9 pilots SWA seniority numbers then bring them on as F9 winds down.
 
slaquer5 said:
Dont bet on it. I wish the F9 pilots the best of luck. If F9 plays there cards right they will be very happy. JMO
Click to expand...

Yea, I remember something along those lines when SWA injected 50some million into ATA.... That was awsome. I think it lasted about 2 years? Not quite... life after SWA


Great business plan for SWA bad for everyone else.
 
Sounds like the consensus will be a Morris like integration. Pay protected but stapled to the bottom.

That should make most people happy. SWA F/Os don't get screwed and the Frontier Capts. get pay. Best you can get when getting bought out. Otherwise I think SWA will dump'em like the ATA crew.
 
DH2WN said:
Sounds like the consensus will be a Morris like integration. Pay protected but stapled to the bottom.

That should make most people happy. SWA F/Os don't get screwed and the Frontier Capts. get pay. Best you can get when getting bought out. Otherwise I think SWA will dump'em like the ATA crew.
Click to expand...


Yes I can agree to that. It would be sad to see the F9 pilots on the street but I would perfer just like every JR SWA pilot or all would want, staple.
 
Why does SWA need to buy Frontier to compete in DEN?

They can't find 737's?
They need RJ's?
They don't know how to market seats?
Gate space?
They afraid of RAH?

It's not making much sense to me...
 
With SWAPA rejecting a 5 year agreement in early June this opens up any potential integration with Frontier pilots. Wouldn't it be something if Frontier insists that their pilots be integrated in a 1 for 2 or 1 for 3 slotting as part of any agreement to accept SWA proposal. Not sure if this is good or bad and for whom?
 
Poahi said:
Why does SWA need to buy Frontier to compete in DEN?

They can't find 737's?
They need RJ's?
They don't know how to market seats?
Gate space?
They afraid of RAH?

It's not making much sense to me...
Click to expand...

Here's why it makes sense.

1. Buying the competition is cheaper and much quicker than a protracted battle.
2. F9 flies international, SWA doesn't (but wants to).
3. F9 flies to ATL, SWA doesn't (but wants to).
4. F9 comes with Lynx, SWA wants a feeder system to takeover some of their smaller markets.
 
Don't get me wrong, I do want a fair integration. However, I think the WN pilots have a bit more leverage than the F9 pilots. Southwest does not want a union versus union war and has publicly stated that there will be no deal if the unions can not come to a negotiated agreement. There will be no arbitration and a forced A/M merger because with no integration agreement there will be no purchase. What happens to F9 pilots if SWA does not purchase them? Republic?! The choice seems easy to me and F9 guys I've talked to seem to agree.

Good luck to all involved. If it goes through, I hope it can be worked out to a point that we can all be fairly satisfied.

shootr

PS For shearedshaft, if your beloved TA1 had passed, we would have had no choice but to abide by A/M in a purchase/merger. Now it is in the company's best interest to get us onboard with this. Interesting that they have already stated this is how they want to handle it.
 
Last edited:
Dan Roman said:
My perception of the reason the TWA guys got screwed was they agreed to not fight it in court.
Click to expand...
Not accurate, there was no such agreement. (Indeed, a DFR suit is still winding its way through the courts.) What sunk the TWA pilots was the bankruptcy judge forcing us to give up the successorship clause in our contract. Without any contractual protection or leverage the APA was free to have their way with us.

I certainly wish the best for the Frontier pilots but unless the Bond-McKaskill law applies the SW pilots are going to protect their own (that's a euphemism for stapling).
 
BeachBummer said:
Yea, I remember something along those lines when SWA injected 50some million into ATA.... That was awsome. I think it lasted about 2 years? Not quite... life after SWA


Great business plan for SWA bad for everyone else.
Click to expand...


thats right we injected 50 mill we didnt buy them. get your facts straight, The F9 guys are welcome here as far as I'm concerned.
 
Will the F9 pilots be required to buy a type rating in the 737? :)


had to go there...
 
shootr said:
PS For shearedshaft, if your beloved TA1 had passed, we would have had no choice but to abide by A/M in a purchase/merger. Now it is in the company's best interest to get us onboard with this. Interesting that they have already stated this is how they want to handle it.
Click to expand...

That's a good point. I read it to protect SWAPA pilots if we ever were purchased, but perhaps the reverse would be true as well.
 
TWA Dude said:
Not accurate, there was no such agreement. (Indeed, a DFR suit is still winding its way through the courts.) What sunk the TWA pilots was the bankruptcy judge forcing us to give up the successorship clause in our contract. Without any contractual protection or leverage the APA was free to have their way with us.

I certainly wish the best for the Frontier pilots but unless the Bond-McKaskill law applies the SW pilots are going to protect their own (that's a euphemism for stapling).
Click to expand...

...firing that torpedo was ALPA National's own advisors stating "you HAVE to give up scope...."
 
Poahi said:
Why does SWA need to buy Frontier to compete in DEN?

They can't find 737's?
They need RJ's?
They don't know how to market seats?
Gate space?
They afraid of RAH?

It's not making much sense to me...
Click to expand...


The biggest reason i can think of is the fact that they are fighting a losing battle against us right now. SWA thought for sure that F9 would have been gone a long time ago after they came into the market, but we fought back and are still around, at least for the most part. It will be easier for them to buy us and do something with us than keep losing money fighting us, especially if we get a large backing of cash to keep puting up the fight. Plus i know they would kill, no pun intended, for those A gates...no more having to get pax to the C gates on that darn train, and they could get their birds visible to EVERYONE who drives into the airport.
 
firing that torpedo was ALPA National's own advisors stating "you HAVE to give up scope...."
Click to expand...

Oh you mean our current FAA Administrator! and former ALPA President???

Their time is comming......$$$$$$$
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top Bottom