Congress to Hold News Conference to Announce Air Safety Improvement 2:30EST

[BLUE BAYOU]

No crew rest requirement will change the fact that said F/O on Colgan flight commuted in from the west coast on a Redeye and worked the very same day. Maybe the next legislation is going to be living in base....

 

[Lear70]

No crew rest requirement will change the fact that said F/O on Colgan flight commuted in from the west coast on a Redeye and worked the very same day. Maybe the next legislation is going to be living in base....

Unlikely.

 

[ArmadilloJackal]

I listened to the webcast. The subcommittee is chartering a study of commuting for later review. It won't make this bill but they are going to gather research and look at it.

 

[jmreii]

It's better this way. You don't want congress making the rest rule changes, what the hell do they know about it? Nothing. There giving it to the FAA to make the right changes as it should be. More than likely they'll take care of all those duty hour regs and such that everyone wants. Hey I'm furloughed too and want to go back just as bad as the next guy out on the street, and so I'm glad the FAA is handling this and not the other way around. Tougher rest rules will require more staffing. If they implement new rules by the beginning of next summer, then the airlines will be forced to recall and have everyone trained BEFORE the rule is in place.

If you say so! how big a bonus you get joe, I got a whopper so dinner is on me.

sign

Management

 

[Nevets]

I listened to the webcast. The subcommittee is chartering a study of commuting for later review. It won't make this bill but they are going to gather research and look at it.

• (c) Effect of Commuting on Fatigue-

• • (1) IN GENERAL- Not later than 3 months after the date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator shall enter into appropriate arrangements with the National Academy of Sciences to conduct a study of the effects of commuting on pilot fatigue and report its findings to the Administrator.

• • (2) STUDY- In conducting the study, the National Academy of Sciences shall consider--

• • • (A) the prevalence of pilot commuting in the commercial air carrier industry, including the number and percentage of pilots who commute;

• • • (B) information relating to commuting by pilots, including distances traveled, time zones crossed, time spent, and methods used;

• • • (C) research on the impact of commuting on pilot fatigue, sleep, and circadian rhythms;

• • • (D) commuting policies of commercial air carriers (including passenger and all-cargo air carriers), including pilot check-in requirements and sick leave and fatigue policies;

• • • (E) post-conference materials from the Federal Aviation Administration's June 2008 symposium entitled `Aviation Fatigue Management Symposium: Partnerships for Solutions';

• • • (F) Federal Aviation Administration and international policies and guidance regarding commuting; and

• • • (G) any other matters as the Administrator considers appropriate.

• • (3) PRELIMINARY FINDINGS- Not later than 120 days after the date of entering into arrangements under paragraph (1), the National Academy of Sciences shall submit to the Administrator its preliminary findings under the study.

• • (4) REPORT- Not later than 6 months after the date of entering into arrangements under paragraph (1), the National Academy of Sciences shall submit to the Administrator a report containing its findings under the study and any recommendations for regulatory or administrative actions by the Federal Aviation Administration concerning commuting by pilots.

• • (5) RULEMAKING- Following receipt of the report of the National Academy of Sciences under paragraph (4), the Administrator shall--

• • • (A) consider the findings and recommendations in the report; and

• • • (B) update, as appropriate based on scientific data, regulations required by subsection (a) on flight and duty time.

• • (6) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS- There are authorized to be appropriated such sums as may be necessary to carry out this subsection.

 

[BlackPilot628]

If everyone is going to be required to have an ATP, you would have think they would have touched on the pay issue.

 

[ArmadilloJackal]

The pay question was raised by a member of the press. The answer was that Congress doesn't legislate pay directly but that with the ATP requirement market forces will bring the pay up. They also made a comment that low pay has deterred qualified pilots from the industry, and that it needs to change.

 

[NEDude]

I still fail to see how they could regulate commuting other than (God forbid) to take away the jumpseat.

But that does not take away pass riding or driving long distances. Even if there was some way to regulate that a pilot "live" within a certain distance of their base, crashpad addresses, or a friends address could skirt around that.

And how are you going to regulate compensating someone who has to live in New York City?

I just do not think it is feasable or practical.

 

[lionflyer]

I still fail to see how they could regulate commuting other than (God forbid) to take away the jumpseat.

But that does not take away pass riding or driving long distances. Even if there was some way to regulate that a pilot "live" within a certain distance of their base, crashpad addresses, or a friends address could skirt around that.

And how are you going to regulate compensating someone who has to live in New York City?

I just do not think it is feasable or practical.

Exactly! It will probably be swept under the rug when they find out:
1. How many commuters there are in the system.
2. How difficult it will be to regulate it.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

If anything they will not get rid of commuting, they will jet require a "rest" period in domicile prior to report. It sucks, but this is what happens when you let congress get their hands in to your industry. They do it to the truckers, etc. 10 hrs max duty. Max 500 miles a day, Only one gas fill up a day. That is why most truckers have two sets of books. One for them and one for the feds.
It is the only way they survive.

Like last time with age 65. The FAA will rush to beat congress to the punch on this regulation. I am happy to see that at least congress is not pushing for specifics, but letting the FAA do their job. That is an impressive first.

I do not see them tackling commuting yet. Rest and Duty day yes.
IMHO I do not think that they can contribute the BUF crash to commuting. It was total lack of SA, and even poorer training. When reading the CVR transcripts and watching the data stream, it appeared to me that the FO reacted as one would in a go around, not an upset recovery. That is not commuting, that is improper training which should have been rote by the time any of us got to the airlines.

 

[inline]

I like it. Sim rides for applicants. I thought it was stupid when airlines started doing away with that.

The airlines were right with doing away with sim rides for applicants. The training process will weed out the bad pilots.

 

[Lear70]

IMHO I do not think that they can contribute the BUF crash to commuting. It was total lack of SA, and even poorer training. When reading the CVR transcripts and watching the data stream, it appeared to me that the FO reacted as one would in a go around, not an upset recovery.

That was my very first thought watching the accident sequence instrumentation animation online, that the airspeed was increasing, she thought they were in the recovery process, didn't see the unusual attitude, just the airspeed, and grabbed the flaps almost as if by instinct or rote habit rather than understanding what was going on...

Of course, we'll never know, but I can't think of any other reason for her to do that except thinking the stall recovery had been completed with the increased airspeed OR the tailplane icing scenario. Wish she'd have said why so the Colgan training department would know where the training shortfall lies.

 

[rumrunner300]

Highlights

Pilot training: ATP required 1500 hours min for hiring
Stall and upset recovery including stick pusher training
Pro standards - Pilot mentoring programs will be required
Electronic pilot record database will be required for record keeping it will go beyond the 5 years look back they have now
All Websites will be required to show which carrier will be operating the flight of the ticket you purchase
Requires the FAA to implement new rest rules. Also commissions the National Academy of Sciences to study commuting as it applies to fatigue

This is long over due. The current lack of Captains teaching FO's the way is a serious problem. On my second tour of the Regionals, I noticed a huge difference in the lack of mentoring on the part of captains. Everyone just wanted to get along and not tell someone they were F%*&$(%g up. How many times have you seen the simple act of REQUESTING a jumpseat completley F'ed up? My first turn (the hardcore Lakes method) was a stark difference. Guess which approach I think best.

Part of the answer is to clean it up from within. We can, and should, weed out the jerkweeds ourselves

Run it Btch

 

[BlackPilot628]

The pay question was raised by a member of the press. The answer was that Congress doesn't legislate pay directly but that with the ATP requirement market forces will bring the pay up. They also made a comment that low pay has deterred qualified pilots from the industry, and that it needs to change.

OK. Thank you.

 

[densoo]

New rules today?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/6596436.html

WASHINGTON — Current federal rules for how many hours pilots can be scheduled to work were written in an age of propellor-driven planes. Officials back then defined a reasonable work day for a pilot without a scientific understanding of fatigue and well before the modern airline industry. Finding ways to prevent pilot fatigue has stymied federal regulators and the airline industry for decades. The National Transportation Safety Board has been recommending since 1990 that rules on how many hours pilots can be scheduled to work be updated to reflect modern research and take into account early starting times and frequent takeoffs and landings.
On Tuesday, a committee made up of airline officials and union leaders is expected to deliver recommendations for updating the regulations. Although Federal Aviation Administrator Randy Babbitt has promised to vet those recommendations swiftly and turn them into a formal proposal by the FAA, the process will at a minimum take months to complete.
NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman said she doesn't expect the suggestions to be offered Tuesday to address all the issues that are part of the fatigue problem, but she hopes they will supply a foundation. “You have to build all the rest of the house around it,” she said.
Some members of Congress, though, don't trust the FAA to finally come to grips with the problem. Besides forcing the agency's hand, a bill proposed by lawmakers would require airlines to use fatigue risk management systems — complex scheduling programs that alert the company to potential fatigue problems.
After the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee approved the bill earlier this month, Chairman James Oberstar ran through a list of the airline crashes in recent decades.
“The common thread running through all of it is fatigue,” said Oberstar, D-Minn. “We have many experiences of the flight crew, the cabin crew, who in cases of emergency were just so numb they couldn't respond instantly to a tragedy at hand.”
Linda Zimmerman, a retired Ohio teacher whose sister died in a 2004 regional airline crash in Kirksville, Mo., said the government's slow response saddens her.
“So many people have died and they haven't done anything about it,” Zimmerman said.
Corporate Airlines Flight 5966 was preparing to land on Oct. 19, 2004, when the twin-engine turboprop slammed into trees. The pilots and 11 passengers were killed. Two injured passengers survived by jumping from the plane moments before it was engulfed in flames.
The NTSB said the pilots failed to notice that their plane had descended too quickly because they failed to follow procedures and engaged in unprofessional cockpit banter. But the board also said the captain and first officer probably were exhausted — they were completing their sixth flight of the day, had been on duty more than 14 hours and had flown three trips the day before.
Studies show exhaustion can impair a flier's judgment in much the same way alcohol does. It's not uncommon for overtired pilots to focus on a conversation or a single chore and miss other things going on around them, including critical flight information. In a few cases, they've just fallen asleep.
Last year, two Mesa Airlines pilots conked out for at least 18 minutes during a midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii, as their plane continued to cruise past its destination and out to sea. Air traffic controllers were finally able to raise the pilots, who turned around the plane with its 40 passengers and landed it safely.
NTSB said that even though the pilots had not been working long that day, they were clearly fatigued. They cited the pilots' work schedules — the day of the incident was the third consecutive day that both pilots started duty at 5:40 a.m. — and said the captain had an undiagnosed case of sleep apnea.
FAA rules on how many hours an airline pilot may fly or be on duty before he must rest have been virtually unchanged for nearly a half-century, mainly because if airlines have to allow their crews more rest, they would have to hire more crews.
An FAA effort to tackle the issue in the mid-1990s foundered because airlines wanted concessions from pilots in return for reducing flying hours, and the pilots unions wouldn't go along. The agency proposed a new rule, but it has languished for years without final action.
NTSB's investigation of the crash of Continental Connection Flight 3407 on Feb. 12 near Buffalo, N.Y., killing 50, has spotlighted the long hours, low pay and long-distance commutes of regional airline pilots.
It's not clear where the captain of Flight 3407 slept the night before the crash, but it appears he may have tried to nap in a busy airport crew room where his company — regional carrier Colgan Air Inc. of Manassas, Va., which operated the flight for Continental — kept bright lights on continuously to discourage extended sleeping. The first officer commuted overnight from her home near Seattle to Newark, N.J., to make the flight to Buffalo.
Current rules say pilots can be scheduled for up to 16 hours on duty and up to eight hours of actual flight time in a day, with a minimum of eight hours off in between. They don't take into account that it is probably more tiring for regional airline pilots to fly five or six short legs in seven hours than it is for a pilot with a major airline to fly eight hours across the Atlantic to Europe with only one takeoff and landing.
One way to compensate would be a “controlled napping” policy, based on NASA research more than two decades ago. It found that pilots were more alert and performed better during landings when they were allowed to take turns napping during the cruise phase of flights. Other countries have adopted the policies, but the FAA has not.
According to Curtis Graeber, who ran NASA's fatigue research program for 10 years, some high-level officials worried that controlled napping would become the butt of jokes by late-night comedians.

OK to have crashes due to fatigue, but hire more pilots and butt of jokes--no way.