Discussion with the V.P @ Skywest. ASA lookout

[Speedtape]

Nevets,
I can name plenty of things ALPA has done including their lobby on better and safer rules for aviation. I believe in this climate today with things being as fluid as they even in good times, ALPA can not and shown they have no desire to bend to the pressure of the market. That to me is how it has become broken. ALPA IS NOT A UNION! It is a loose association and should conduct itself as such instead of how it does today.

It can be fixed and I'd like to run for office, but I'd tarred, feathered and run out on a rusty rail. There are simply too many militant guys that will take the majority down that road because they don't want to get tossed into the RJDC pot. Because everyone knows, if you don't agree with ALPA, well you must be a RJDC guy.

I don't think you answered Nevjets questions. What exactly do YOU stand for? What would you do different?

 

[Speedtape]

Good analysis Speedtape, with one problem, you are up against the DAL 70-76 seat scope clause cap at 255 airframes. So unless they use a bunch of fifties, no dice.

Don't sweat the small details! Everything is for sale.

 

[enuffalready]

IF UNITED FAILS>>>>>>>>>that is the question!

If United fails:
1. Mesa fails.
2. Republic could fail.
3. Any commuter that does business with UAL could fail---except for Skywest

If United fails and most of the associated feeders fail:
1. Mesa will no longer be in existence to feed Delta or USAIR.
2. Republic will be hurt, but it looks like they are attempting to take actions to have some alternate plan.

If United and the United feeders fail--except for Skywest:

1. Delta will need new feed, because Mesa will go away.
2. SKywest will be ready to provide replacement feed.
3. USAir will need immediate feed in Phoenix and where ever else Mesa feeds them.
4. Skywest will be there in a heart beat to replace Mesa.
5. Delta will grow overnight in LAX to replace the vacuum of UAL.
6. Delta will need immediate feed and Skywest can simply change sides of the airport.


If UAL goes out of business, it could be the best thing that ever happened for Skywest and Skywest, Inc. It may be a bump in the road, but it will be better in the long run and they have plenty of cash to make the transition.

For all you ASA "Doom and Gloomers," Skywest, Inc. will not grow Skywest by cannablizing ASA--a money maker! What would that accomplish? My guess is that they are waiting for UAL to die, then Mesa, and to plug into the new world order that will be created. Heck, ASA may even get a few crumbs from the table.

For all you Musers out there: The question to ponder: Are the recent domicile changes any kind of reallignment for the enevitable in the industry and the hypotheticals presented? Should this happen, how would the future crew bases be affected?

Skywest, Inc. will survive a UAL failure--and survive well. They are ready, well financed, and ready to move. I am quite sure the plan is in place.

do you honestly think the BHO is going to allow chicago based united to fold? seriously? you know know how many union voters in illinois would lose their jobs? keep speculating about UAL liquidation all you want but it aint gonna happen.

 

[enuffalready]

and yes, I do believe that skywest would continue to grow at the expense of ASA. Now, asa wont completely go away because they dont want the oo pilots getting too big for their britches, but i would not be suprised if ASA had less that 1000 pilots in 4-5 years.

 

[Tarzan]

What exactly do you mean by "no desire to bend to the pressure of the market" and "ALPA IS NOT A UNION! It is a loose association?"

I'm not trying to start a p1ssing contest. However, read that words, man! You're starting to making posts like Rez.

Why don't you tell me how it is a real union with uniform work rules and wages. Why don't you show me how ALPA has altered their stance in the face of a changing market place. You're the guy that that defends ALPA and generally does it fairly well. You tell me where I am wrong. I have my notions and I'd like you tell me instead of the typical mantra of questioning anyone who doesn't fall into line. This doesn't help ALPA's cause one bit in my perspective, it only reenforces it just as it does with others who think like I do.

If you guy's like Speedtape who vehemently defend ALPA would read my posts, you'd see I am not thrilled with the idea of no representation. However, I feel you ALPA's leaders have grown to comfortable in their postions of power and pestige. First of all, Speedtape, you need a valium. You take this crap whay to personal. Second, I'd impose term limits of twice around on everyone. This includes volunteers that have been particular posts at the LEC level as well or at least reduce some of the perks. I want volunteers who truly care about what they do and are not in it for the bennies Thirdly, I'd get National out the negotiation business. That is for the MEC and LEC level. I liken this sorta to the federal government telling a state what to do with it's own money.

 

[CFI2766]

do you honestly think the BHO is going to allow chicago based united to fold? seriously? you know know how many union voters in illinois would lose their jobs? keep speculating about UAL liquidation all you want but it aint gonna happen.

Well, yes. BHO would allow United to fail. His polls are sliding backward as of late, and it has almost everything to do with the enormous debt that he is piling on the US. No airline will be too big to fail, I suspect. Even United.

 

[Speedtape]

I'm not trying to start a p1ssing contest. However, read that words, man! You're starting to making posts like Rez.

Why don't you tell me how it is a real union with uniform work rules and wages. Why don't you show me how ALPA has altered their stance in the face of a changing market place. You're the guy that that defends ALPA and generally does it fairly well. You tell me where I am wrong. I have my notions and I'd like you tell me instead of the typical mantra of questioning anyone who doesn't fall into line. This doesn't help ALPA's cause one bit in my perspective, it only reenforces it just as it does with others who think like I do.
You want a meaningful debate? I'm up for the challenge. Look at your paystub. It starts there. Would you prefer to be at GoJets? Do you think your company was benevolent and is just handing over the money because you are such a nice guy? Next, look at your contract and the work rules, especially in the scheduling section. Then call one of your buddies at GoJet or even Contiental, and compare! You may be further enlightened. Your contract, ASA ALPA negotiated, embodies your uniform work rules and wage schedule. Would you rather just let your Company decide what you are going to make? In regard to ALPA's stance(on what?), give the specific concern that you have, instead of some obscure allegation. I want my Union to be somewhat flexible, to be able to address and adjust to changing marketing conditions and management tactics. The inflexibilty of some Unions, gets them in trouble in the long run. Is ALPA perfect, NO,NO,NO--but it has advanced safety, pay, and working conditions in our Profession. Make an argument against that, if you can. If you are one of those people that have to have everything perfect and completely in in order to engage, then for sure you are in the wrong profession. When you fly your flights, even with standard procedures and checklists, does everything go perfect every flight? No, but you seem intelligent enough that you can make adjustments and resolve inflight issues to continue to your destination safely. ALPA is not perfect--it is run by imperfect human beings. However, in the absence of anything else, it offers structure and tools to it's members at various airlines so that each ALPA Pilot group can advance their pay and work rules with their respective Company, that is specific to that Pilot Group' s needs. Contracts are not static documents, but documents that evolve and advance with each negotiation. Have you worked for a non ALPA carrier, or at any other aviation job? How did that work for you?

Your Union, on a National level, is engaged and participating in the FAA proposed rules changing committee that will be adopting flight and duty time changes that will affect you and your profession for a long time in your career. Also at the table, is the ATA and RAA which represents Airline Managements. Would you rather not have a seat at the table? Not ME! You can catch it on C-Span, if you really have an interest in an issue that will have a significant impact on your career. Our Union is at the table, and I am confident that our interests will be well represented.

Please be specific in what your ALPA issues are. ALPA is not perfect, but neither is my Government, the elected public officials, Management Execs, Our President, Boy Scouts of America, your Preacher or Priest(if faith is part your life,) Any Church, Movie Stars, our Parents and Grandparents, our children, and lastly US. So does that mean that we just take our toys and go home? No--You accept imperfection in people and institutions, you hold them accountable, and you use your INTELLIGENCE to make the system work for you. In the end--Nothing has to be Perfect to still make it work for you--especially when there is no other viable options.

If you guy's like Speedtape who vehemently defend ALPA would read my posts, you'd see I am not thrilled with the idea of no representation.
Your charge of no representation is a mis-characterization. Go back an read my first response. Do you accept and cash your paycheck? Do you benefit from the contractual work rules? If you violate an FAR or are called on the carpet for discipline--are you going to go it alone? You don't have to!
However, I feel you ALPA's leaders have grown to comfortable in their postions of power and pestige. First of all, Speedtape, you need a valium. You take this crap whay to personal.
Yes I take it personal. I am passionate about it. I know from first hand experience that My Pilot Group is much better off with ALPA than they were without it. I was here for both chapters. Pilots that have been here have made the sacrifices to make it a better place to work--for ourselves, but also for those who followed--including YOU. I understand that you could not have the same perspective. I have had bad jobs in my career, without Union representation. I can tell you that this has become a good job--because of ALPA, and maybe sometimes inspite of ALPA and it's imperfection. However, MY pilot group and it's ALPA leaders never quit and have worked tirelessly to make contractual improvements--that YOU enjoy, and for that reason, I will take it personal.
Second, I'd impose term limits of twice around on everyone. This includes volunteers that have been particular posts at the LEC level as well or at least reduce some of the perks.
Term limits? How many people are standing in line to step up to the plate? Sometimes, and this is one of them, STABILITY and experience are much more important than forcing a turnover. Have you volunteered?
I want volunteers who truly care about what they do and are not in it for the bennies
Maybe, you should get to know some of the volunteers. I think you might find that most care--they aren't doing it for the money--because it is a volunteer job and pays nothing. What are the bennies?
Thirdly, I'd get National out the negotiation business. That is for the MEC and LEC level. I liken this sorta to the federal government telling a state what to do with it's own money.

With all due respect, your MEC has a negotiating team, comprised of your fellow line pilots, who best know your pilot group's issues. Those issues are identified prior to negotiations through scientific surveys and polling. It provides their roadmap. That group negotiates Your contract--by the way, it's the same at every other airline.

It seems that you may want to get better informed on the workings of your Union, before you go off making broad allegations and misinformed statements. Please understand, I am not attacking you. I would prefer that you seek the truth on your own, know the history of ALPA, and even more important, know the history of ALPA on your property. In addition, get engaged and volunteer--that will provide insight that will enforce a new perspective of your views of ALPA.

 

[FORESTGUMP]

If its great, and ALPA negotiated for it, and you agree that was right to do that, then you are contradicting yourself when you say you dont like anything about ALPA. Can you give me your top three specific reasons for not like ALPA? And can you give me two other things you think ALPA has done right?

In my opinion alpa negotiated that little jewel thinking they would not transfer planes because they wouldn't want union minded pilots over at skywest. It was purely an accident that it could work out well for those of us that would like to escape socialism. Myself and many others would transfer tomorrow without thinking about it if we held relative seniority and got out from under alpa.

Aside from that issue I can think of far more issues I disagree with alpa than agree. 100 to 1 at least. But then again I'm confident in my ability to do my job well and without getting myself into trouble by being stupid/arrogant/lazy/wild/etc.....

Here to hoping skywest will make the offer at some point:beer:

 

[sweptback]

In my opinion alpa negotiated that little jewel thinking they would not transfer planes because they wouldn't want union minded pilots over at skywest. It was purely an accident that it could work out well for those of us that would like to escape socialism. Myself and many others would transfer tomorrow without thinking about it if we held relative seniority and got out from under alpa.

The CNC negotiated that "little jewel" because the company said NO to one list (which was on the table first) and any meaningful steps towards that. They did, however, agree to fragmentation language which protects both the ASA and SkyWest pilots, as well as any future SkyWest subsidiary (if there ever is one).

The bigger question is, since you are so anti-union, why did you ever come to ASA? We've been a union carrier for a long time. SkyWest was hiring up until just about a year ago, why did you never go there? Personally, even after all this crap we are dealing with, I think ASA is a pretty good place to work.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Speedtape is partially correct...but now the "rest of the story".....

Yes ALPA is responsible for the above industry pay and workrules here at ASA....As was ALPA responsible for the same above industry pay and workrules at Comair, Air Wisconsin, Allegany, Piedmont, and ACA....What Speedtape leaves out, is something he also understands very well...ALPA has largely failed and has actually helped contribute to the competition amongst fellow ALPA "brothers" for flying. The great contracts they help negotiate are then used against those same members as their flying is given to another group of pilots....many times belonging to the same union.

Like him, I too was here during the "dark days" of ASA....Those days are gone and this isn't the same ASA. Like him, I too used to be a huge ALPA cheerleader and actually believed that "ALPA speaks for me and I tell them what to say". After many years of ALPA work and industry observation, I have come to the conclusion that ALPA is more detrimental than it is beneficial in OUR situation.

When Jerry purchased ASA (thankfully I might add)...I said that ALPA is going to have to play ball with Jerry, or he will take his ball home....I stand by that statement....Our choices are to work with him or against him....I don't think anyone is going to like the latter...

I want to make as much money as possible, and have as much time off as possible....but first and foremost is having the job in the first place....

One other point to add to Speedtape's glowing remarks about ALPA....Yes ALPA is working on the new duty time and rest rules....however the result will very likely lead to a decrease in quality of life for those who like to have as much time at home as possible.....

Was ALPA necessary here at ASA at one time? Absolutely!
Has ALPA done some good things? Absolutely!
Is ALPA necessary here now? No

I have never seen the perception of ALPA as bad as it is now here at ASA...You ALPA cheerleaders have your work cut out for you....

 

[Speedtape]

I have never seen the perception of ALPA as bad as it is now here at ASA...You ALPA cheerleaders have your work cut out for you....

ALPA Cheerleader--Guilty as accused, mainly because of the good work that YOU and others after you have done! Most of the perception is caused by the fact that there is no growth due to the downturn in the economy. When there is growth, upgrades, and hiring at majors, attitudes are GREAT!

I can't disagree with some of your post, just as you can't disagree with mine. However, I will disagree that there is no need for ALPA today. Contrary, there is more need today, than ever before. The need is protection from our Company, and from ALPA. As you know, for the most part, ALPA is the ASA pilot group. We have too many pilots who have shallow perspectives because this is their first job and/or they need someone or something to blame for the current economic conditions that are preventing them from reaching or at least moving towards their goals. That is what is causing the discontent--with everything, including ALPA. ALPA is not a cure all for all things aviation--but certainly, without it, we would be making near minimum wage or whatever our Employers decided to pay us--but more concerning--we would be At-Will employees. If that were the case, many of us would not still be employed here!

In regard to this Company and it's current management, now, yes, maybe it's the best it has ever been. Maybe, because they have performance goals and they need everyone on board. However, the reality is that could change tomorrow. How many different managers and managements have we(you and I) seen? My guess is that we are just in a different chapter for now, and the end of the book is still at least 10 years away--maybe!

In the meantime: "Two, four, six, eight, who do we appreciate???ALPA--(and maybe even the work of the RJDC to some degree--Rah,Rah, Ray!)

 

[Speedtape]

The CNC negotiated that "little jewel" because the company said NO to one list (which was on the table first) and any meaningful steps towards that. They did, however, agree to fragmentation language which protects both the ASA and SkyWest pilots, as well as any future SkyWest subsidiary (if there ever is one).

The bigger question is, since you are so anti-union, why did you ever come to ASA? We've been a union carrier for a long time. SkyWest was hiring up until just about a year ago, why did you never go there? Personally, even after all this crap we are dealing with, I think ASA is a pretty good place to work.

From one ALPA cheerleader to another ALPA cheerleader, Well Said!

 

[Plainsman]

How is the greviance with the red arrow days going? Seems like the company is getting what they want with that one! Got to go to flightinfo for info like that.

 

[buscap]

In my opinion alpa negotiated that little jewel thinking they would not transfer planes because they wouldn't want union minded pilots over at skywest. It was purely an accident that it could work out well for those of us that would like to escape socialism. Myself and many others would transfer tomorrow without thinking about it if we held relative seniority and got out from under alpa.

Aside from that issue I can think of far more issues I disagree with alpa than agree. 100 to 1 at least. But then again I'm confident in my ability to do my job well and without getting myself into trouble by being stupid/arrogant/lazy/wild/etc.....

Here to hoping skywest will make the offer at some point:beer:

So let's see here... you want to escape "socialism" by moving to a non-union airline...as long as you are able to keep your date of hire seniority? I think I got that right.

And let's see, you must think that seniority gets you all sorts of better pay and quality of life. And that seniority system just happens to be part of the union system. A system which Skywest uses because if they didn't they would have a union on property the very next day.

After all, in a non-socialist airline the company would be free to disregard seniority and award seats and pay based on what the market would bare. And of course employees would be prohibited from divulging how much money they made, so you would never know just how you stood, seniority being gone and all.

Yep!!

Sounds to me like getting out from under this socialist system is a great idea!!!

Whoopdee freakin whippity dooohhhh!!!!!

Doooshhhbag shortsighted hypocrite. Read a book you idiot!!!

 

[Tarzan]

Speedtape,
You sit and lecture as if you have some all encompassing perspective that I could never have. GFY and your GoJet comment. I was at TSA when that entire sh1tball got rolling. Hulas can go rim a goat for all I care. I saw quite a few kids wind up on the street because of those turds. I've done plenty of other stuff in my life as well. I am not some snot nose kid who got here on daddy's money. Basically, I have life experience to base some of my thought processes. So you can go screw yourself with your "mightier than thou" assumptions.

If you've been here as long as you have, you likely came here out of school with little other experience in life so ASA must be one the crappiest companies ever.( How is that for an assumption?) I've heard that same thing from a bunch of guys at ASA. I got news, try out TSA, then come tell me how bad ASA was before Inc bought us. Granted, I missed out on the George and John days and they likely got what they deserved, a union. Those days are long gone. I am not arguing that ALPA has not done anything good; I am arguing that ALPA has not evolved along with the economic shift we have seen in the last 15-20 years. It is hurting you and me in the long. Sure some gains look great on paper and even on the paycheck for a time but at some point those gains begin to diminish in their return. We can sit and throw mud back and forth, but we will not change the other's mind on this. You have valid points but you will likely refuse to acknowledge mine.

I do know some of the volunteers and many of them are d@mn good people who are doing what they believe is right. But I know of at least one who's said he has no intention of ever flying the line again and that he waiting for his shot at National. That is the sort of stuff that does not help my vision of ALPA hence my desire for a forced turnover if not the volunteers then the all the elected people to include the MEC. For the record, I like all those guys as well. For as much garbage as you hear about Newie being militant, I've seen him to be rather level headed and looks to calm things instead of inflaming emotions. But human nature being what it is, even the best man can be influenced by privilege and status and seek his own best interest instead of who they represent.

You claim not to be attacking me yet you link me to conscienceless individuals such as the scabs at CO and GoJet? The game has rules and when you jump in, you play by the rules. I am not so arrogant as to believe I'd have much luck in changing the system. I have entertained the notion of running for an office and have since decided against it. I know there are enough angry folks here that you hear form one on one, to be able to fight through the unpleasant parts but I am not ready to put myself in that predicament now. As for uninformed, I have information I probably should never have gotten about how some things have "occurred." I know another officer who stood his ground on moral grounds and was run out. I respect this guy highly. He believes in representation but not how things are being done now. I am not uninformed as you would like to believe. I was more disappointed than anything to know how some of the money was being spent and how some have conducted themselves.

I'd like the chance to do something with ALPA but how do you juggle college, two jobs, family, and volunteering at the church. Show me a way and I'll take a shot at it.

 

[Tarzan]

My fingers hurt and it is probably chock full of spelling errors.

 

[screamingpax]

The only people ALPA truely helps are themselves - to get some more time off and get paid for it. Times have changed for us at ASA. We pay 2% dues and let Inc. grow while we at ASA shrink. Think what it will be like 5 years into the future (if that exists for ASA). The same MEC helping themselves, feeding everyone this pro ALPA bologna to benefit themselves and DALPA. Skywest treats there pilots well because they don't want to deal with ALPA. We get treated worse because we have ALPA????

 

[Dubya]

YyyyaaaaaaMesasuckswwwwwnnnn

 

[Nevets]

I'm not trying to start a p1ssing contest. However, read that words, man! You're starting to making posts like Rez.

Why don't you tell me how it is a real union with uniform work rules and wages. Why don't you show me how ALPA has altered their stance in the face of a changing market place. You're the guy that that defends ALPA and generally does it fairly well. You tell me where I am wrong. I have my notions and I'd like you tell me instead of the typical mantra of questioning anyone who doesn't fall into line. This doesn't help ALPA's cause one bit in my perspective, it only reenforces it just as it does with others who think like I do.

If you guy's like Speedtape who vehemently defend ALPA would read my posts, you'd see I am not thrilled with the idea of no representation. However, I feel you ALPA's leaders have grown to comfortable in their postions of power and pestige. First of all, Speedtape, you need a valium. You take this crap whay to personal. Second, I'd impose term limits of twice around on everyone. This includes volunteers that have been particular posts at the LEC level as well or at least reduce some of the perks. I want volunteers who truly care about what they do and are not in it for the bennies Thirdly, I'd get National out the negotiation business. That is for the MEC and LEC level. I liken this sorta to the federal government telling a state what to do with it's own money.

You are reading way to much into it. I asked a couple of simple questions to understand where you are coming from. So that I can have a dialogue with you without having to guess what it is you are talking about.

I love the idea of a real union with uniform wages and work rules. But I wasnt sure if that is what you were talking about. I thought you were going a different direction with your "association" comment.

By the way, we are ALPA. The elected leaders are not ALPA. If you dont like what they are doing or not doing, its not that hard to get the recalled. It just takes line pilots to do it.

By the way, every MEC negotiates for themselves. The MEC will poll their members to see what they want. And the MEC directs the NC what to negotiate for depending on the members feedback. National does NOT negotiate for the MEC. Sure, their attorney may write the scope section because that is something they are good at but generally the MEC/NC decide on work rules and pay and ultimately the line pilots decide with their ratification vote. The president just signs the final contract as long as it follows the administrative manual. Also, the MEC may call the president to show up at a negotiating session just as leverage. He will be there at the MEC direction, not the other way around.

In my opinion alpa negotiated that little jewel thinking they would not transfer planes because they wouldn't want union minded pilots over at skywest. It was purely an accident that it could work out well for those of us that would like to escape socialism. Myself and many others would transfer tomorrow without thinking about it if we held relative seniority and got out from under alpa.

Aside from that issue I can think of far more issues I disagree with alpa than agree. 100 to 1 at least. But then again I'm confident in my ability to do my job well and without getting myself into trouble by being stupid/arrogant/lazy/wild/etc.....

Here to hoping skywest will make the offer at some point:beer:

According to JA himself, that language is precisely why they wouldnt transfer enough aircraft to trigger the transfer of pilots. I wonder why he feels that way?

By the way, its this "socialism" which has helped make this industry as safe as it is. Dont be so quick to take it for granted. And dont be someone who rides the coatails of us that see that and pay into it.

The only people ALPA truely helps are themselves - to get some more time off and get paid for it. Times have changed for us at ASA. We pay 2% dues and let Inc. grow while we at ASA shrink. Think what it will be like 5 years into the future (if that exists for ASA). The same MEC helping themselves, feeding everyone this pro ALPA bologna to benefit themselves and DALPA. Skywest treats there pilots well because they don't want to deal with ALPA. We get treated worse because we have ALPA????

ALPA is ourselves! ALPA has helped you by making it safe for you take make a living at what we love to do. You wouldnt have the problem of you shrinking and SKW growing at your expense if they were union. Just look at the XJT deal. If it wasnt for ALPA, XJT would probably be in the same boat as ASA. What is the link there? SKW treats their pilots "well" (depends on who you ask) because they are trying to keep them non-union. In reality, the offer them just enough to keep the from unionizing.

In any case, if you dont like the leadership, do something about it.

 

[Erlanger]

You wouldnt have the problem of you shrinking and SKW growing at your expense if they were union.

Don't be blaming the Skywest pilots. So hundreds of thousands of pilots of the all mighty ALPA is ineffective against a group of 2800 Skywest pilots. Give me a break! Before you blame others, you should look inward. And you wonder why pilots are questioning ALPA and their MECs leadership.