SWAPA TA failure just cost me $1,200 per month

[Max Powers]

I am a senior FO at SWA and my pay rate was scheduled to go from $108 to $121 after the TA (from about $120/hour to $135/hr).

I fly 120 trips per month, so the TA failure cost me $1,200 per month. Every month.

Would I write a check for $1,200 per month to keep ELITT the same? Nope. How about to let lance captains continue to take senior FO lines and give them to junior FOs? Nope.

This is the interesting part: I've asked every FO I've come in contact with in the last week what they thought their gross pay raise was going to be if the TA passed. Not one had an answer.

Luckily, SWA just announced 9% lower revenues for last month, so I'm sure our pay raises will be even better (not) when we go back to the table.

You guys don't know a good thing when it's looking you in the eye.

Spoken like a true Idiot. This must be your first airline and first union. It not just the money. I bet your a joy to fly with. Go back to watching fox news little boy.

 

[T3700]

We have a few of the same whiners at AirTran. I remember one pilot complaining "just because we have people on furlough, I don't see why I shouldn't pick up open time to make extra money".

Go back to watching fox news little boy.

And which unbiased, always truthful, TV news channel do you watch?

 

[HA25]

Im all about raising the bar in pay, but this gripe at a time where there is a lot of people on the street looking for a job was not timed well.

As much as I love the picture, I've had two complaints that your avatar and signature border or pornography. Please find something more subtle to use.

thanks
FMS-Speed
Moderator

 

[ArianaAfghanAir]

I am a senior FO at SWA and my pay rate was scheduled to go from $108 to $121 after the TA (from about $120/hour to $135/hr).

I fly 120 trips per month, so the TA failure cost me $1,200 per month. Every month.

Would I write a check for $1,200 per month to keep ELITT the same? Nope. How about to let lance captains continue to take senior FO lines and give them to junior FOs? Nope.

This is the interesting part: I've asked every FO I've come in contact with in the last week what they thought their gross pay raise was going to be if the TA passed. Not one had an answer.

Luckily, SWA just announced 9% lower revenues for last month, so I'm sure our pay raises will be even better (not) when we go back to the table.

You guys don't know a good thing when it's looking you in the eye.

Do you realize the significance of your no vote. It was due to smart pilots protecting their jobs. No scope, no RJ's, no holes in the contract. If that vote would have passed, I guarantee you would have seen 100+ RJ's at WN pretty soon after with no one being hired for ten years behind you. Look at what developed at United. You should really think about the significance about that before you whine about $1200/month. In the long run you protected your $250K/yr job. Think!

 

[RDG]

I guess you're not reading this. The ELITT DTC restrictions are only meaningful if the net zero is zero. If the net zero was substantially positive, DTC would be meaningless.

Funny, funny.

What are you talking about dude? If a day is red, its red. It does not matter if the net zero is up to 100, if a Friday is red and you have a three day starting that day, you can't trade off it. DTC is not meaningless.

 

[filejw]

Wow, you sound like a UAL pilot circa 2000: "Give me my raises... I don't care about the outsourcing Section 1 allows." Your biggest pay raise will come when SWA grows its own fleet (instead of Volaris & WestJet) and you upgrade to Captain. Then you'll get your lousy $1200 a month and then some.

glad to see somebody that understands what happened to the UAl's of the world and is trying to prevent it. There is no reason SWA can't fly it own A/C to Mexico or Canada...i can think of some great routes you guys soud be flying PHl YUL YYZ .how about both canadian city's to Fla.....

 

[BLing]

I lost $10,000 a month for a net income of ZERO so shut it!

 

[The Victors]

Do you realize the significance of your no vote. It was due to smart pilots protecting their jobs. No scope, no RJ's, no holes in the contract. If that vote would have passed, I guarantee you would have seen 100+ RJ's at WN pretty soon after with no one being hired for ten years behind you. Look at what developed at United. You should really think about the significance about that before you whine about $1200/month. In the long run you protected your $250K/yr job. Think!

Guarantee? I'll take that bet. You do realize that the TA stopped domestic RJ codeshare and now we have nothing that stops swa from domestic codeshare.

 

[Max Powers]

We have a few of the same whiners at AirTran. I remember one pilot complaining "just because we have people on furlough, I don't see why I shouldn't pick up open time to make extra money".




And which unbiased, always truthful, TV news channel do you watch?

I listen to all, especially PBS New Hour. PBS just reports the occurrences; in other words the facts. Sorry, did not mean to offend but if I see Fox news on one more time in the break room I'm going to snap. I mean I'd rather watch "my sweet 16" on MTV - then those guys yelling at each other. FWIW I am a Colin P. Republican. Why can't we just have a civilized discussion about the different solutions to our problems.

 

[Colonel Savage]

As much as I love the picture, I've had two complaints that your avatar and signature border or pornography. Please find something more subtle to use.

thanks
FMS-Speed
Moderator

WAIT! Let me go see first!

WOW!

OK, you can change it now. No WAIT!

 

[Richard Gozinya]

Except in this contract, the open time was going to be a ton more flexible, the drawdown of the lance program was going to let me be a captain longer and an FO shorter, ELITT wouldn't have continued to get pounded by lances and first year FOs, so ELITT would have actually started working on me and to top it off, there was no domestic code share allowed.

Where was the problem?

Speak for yourself there Kemo Sabe! You may have pounded the ELITT and reaped the benefits of such, but there are plenty of us out there that have NEVER had the opporutunity to expore this benefit. I've been here 9 months and haven't had the pleasure of doing ANYTHING but sit reserve and take what scraps are tossed my way. Go piss on someone else's parade.

Dick

 

[whymeworry?]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

You sound just like the whining pilots I've listened when we voted down a TA in '97. Grow a pair. If you guys are unified and stay strong, you'll get everything you were asking for and then some. Voting down a TA is a GOOD thing.

120 trips per month? I think all that over-worked-ness has gotten to your brain. You'll kill yourself eventually if you keep whoring like that.

 

[xrated]

Armageddon must be near. I never though I would see the day, and when I did, I would know the end was near....Southwest pilots are arguing and there is dissention among the ranks!! Who would have thunk????

In all honesty, good luck to you all, you're our only hope!

 

[ASADFW7]

I am a SWA FO as well, so the TA was defeated, stop whinning and keep your mouth shut. It is shameful that we hired jackazzez like you at SWA.

 

[murano]

Armageddon must be near. I never though I would see the day, and when I did, I would know the end was near....Southwest pilots are arguing and there is dissention among the ranks!! Who would have thunk????

Well, keep in mind it's a 1994 contract. In the 90s and early 2000 SWA wasn't paid all that well compared to the other major airlines. Then everybody else came tumbling down and we ended up on top. We're just trying to keep the bar high for everyone else to negotiate back to.

 

[FlyinHigh737]

Regardless where you were on the vote, the day when we as pilots think we can make management decisions with regards to the companies future, is, at best naive'. We mitigate as best we can and then watch our culture vaporize. I, for one think that all the name calling on this board from my fellow pilots is non-productive. Some of the "no" voters engage with your the comments and substance, and not name calling. All this from an FO that did read the TA and still voted "yes". Support your argument and open your ears, you could be wrong, or very spot on.

 

[murano]

Regardless where you were on the vote, the day when we as pilots think we can make management decisions with regards to the companies future, is, at best naive'. We mitigate as best we can and then watch our culture vaporize. I, for one think that all the name calling on this board from my fellow pilots is non-productive. Some of the "no" voters engage with your the comments and substance, and not name calling. All this from an FO that did read the TA and still voted "yes". Support your argument and open your ears, you could be wrong, or very spot on.

What would you rather have? A contract which limits codeshare and outsourcing or "culture"? Keep in mind that most pilots that have voted no on this contract still love SWA. We just refuse to have our jobs outsourced. We refuse to take raises that are 50% lower than all other work groups. We refuse to change an open time system that is not broken. We refuse to give 100+ lances a 30% paycut. What do you think that would have done to our "culture"? I can guarantee you that if this thing would have passed by as much of a small margin as it failed, the culture would have been destroyed at a much faster pace.

 

[Beechball]

Regardless where you were on the vote, the day when we as pilots think we can make management decisions with regards to the companies future, is, at best naive'. We mitigate as best we can and then watch our culture vaporize. I, for one think that all the name calling on this board from my fellow pilots is non-productive. Some of the "no" voters engage with your the comments and substance, and not name calling. All this from an FO that did read the TA and still voted "yes". Support your argument and open your ears, you could be wrong, or very spot on.

FlyinHigh737,
From what you post as equipment that you've flown....I'm assuming this is your first airline. You flew a Diamond Katana (piston SEL) and a Beech Premier Jet.....then a 737. There's a lot of us that have flown in the airline industry before coming to SWA where we have gained a lot of insight into the inner workings of airlines. You may have read the whole TA, which is awesome and thank you, but there are issues that in the TA that are common to carriers that are out there now.

We had an AA F/O on board yesterday that said they were cheering that we voted down the TA. The TA is not about whether it's "good for me" or "doesn't affect what I do," it's about is it good and fair for others. Those "others" may not be in our company as other airlines look at what we approve to direct their employees' work rules.

What I was lead to believe when the TA was being worked on was that it was just going to "clean up" our current contract....not change it. For an employee group to turn down raises, no matter how small or large they are, it sends a message that there are definitely other issues that need to be addressed.

The neat thing about life is that there are no rights and wrongs in opinions. Rights and wrongs are our own beliefs of what is right and wrong. When it comes to the TA...if one person interprets what it says as one thing, and someone else interprets it to say something else...it means that there is problem in the wording in that it is definitely not clear cut. If it's not clear cut, then the company can interpret it one way and do what they want.

There are things to be fixed. Unfortunately the company has always hired many pilots that never had airline experience prior to SWA, so the company always got what they wanted. Those days are over. Saying "No thanks" to a TA is not going to dissolve a company. Mis-management dissolves companies.

As a pilot, I know I'm not the CEO of the airline and voting for or against a TA is not an attempt to control the company. Each vote should be each employees' opinion of whether they think the TA is good for or bad for the group as a whole. Unfortunately, I've heard too much from the captain side that said "This TA doesn't really affect me." It's very sad that people can't think beyond themselves.

 

[AAflyer]

FlyinHigh737,
From what you post as equipment that you've flown....I'm assuming this is your first airline. You flew a Diamond Katana (piston SEL) and a Beech Premier Jet.....then a 737. There's a lot of us that have flown in the airline industry before coming to SWA where we have gained a lot of insight into the inner workings of airlines. You may have read the whole TA, which is awesome and thank you, but there are issues that in the TA that are common to carriers that are out there now.

We had an AA F/O on board yesterday that said they were cheering that we voted down the TA. The TA is not about whether it's "good for me" or "doesn't affect what I do," it's about is it good and fair for others. Those "others" may not be in our company as other airlines look at what we approve to direct their employees' work rules.

What I was lead to believe when the TA was being worked on was that it was just going to "clean up" our current contract....not change it. For an employee group to turn down raises, no matter how small or large they are, it sends a message that there are definitely other issues that need to be addressed.

The neat thing about life is that there are no rights and wrongs in opinions. Rights and wrongs are our own beliefs of what is right and wrong. When it comes to the TA...if one person interprets what it says as one thing, and someone else interprets it to say something else...it means that there is problem in the wording in that it is definitely not clear cut. If it's not clear cut, then the company can interpret it one way and do what they want.

There are things to be fixed. Unfortunately the company has always hired many pilots that never had airline experience prior to SWA, so the company always got what they wanted. Those days are over. Saying "No thanks" to a TA is not going to dissolve a company. Mis-management dissolves companies.

As a pilot, I know I'm not the CEO of the airline and voting for or against a TA is not an attempt to control the company. Each vote should be each employees' opinion of whether they think the TA is good for or bad for the group as a whole. Unfortunately, I've heard too much from the captain side that said "This TA doesn't really affect me." It's very sad that people can't think beyond themselves.

Excellent post!!

AA

 

[BoilerUP]

...its actually a Falcon 20, Westwind, then Guppy...

 

[Whataburger]

I read the original post and filtered it into my "B!tchboard to English" translator, and here's what I got:

"Me me me me me me, me me. Me me me me me me. Me me me me me me me me me me, me me, me me me me me me me me me me me!!!!!"

 

[Tripower455]

I see the big picture, and I fully understand both the TA and the side letters. From the sounds of you guys, you believed the hype and gave up all our raises and our codeshare protection.

We had no codeshare or scope protection in the TA. Section 1 was written for a very specific situation, that is apparantly not happening, and in any case, was not written in a way that would protect us anyway. It was written to make a merger more seamless and easy for the lawyers. It also specifically allowed RJs under certain situations. What "iron clad" protections did it offer? It was so gray and full of holes that there was little to stop Gary from doing whatever he wanted, and NO teeth whatsoever when he violated it.

This is because you don't understand ELITT and the damage that Lances do to your schedule flexibility, you don't understand the damage to your schedule flexibility first year guys do,

LOL.... The only "damage to my flexibility re: ELITT has been done by DTC. Period. And they were more than TWICE as restrictive in the new TA. Adn don't fall for the "DTC is there to restrict weekday flying from migrating to the weekends" nonsense. There is so little weekday flying when ELITT opens that it's statistically a non player, and 30/7 prevents it in most cases anyway. What DTC does is prevent WEEKEND TO WEEKEND trades. That alone has already cost me, under the current CBA, at 12 year pay, far more than $1200 per month, and would've been far worse with the TA.

and you haven't read word-by-word the code share restrictions in the new TA and compared them to the nonsense in SL32.

SL32 is not great, but at least it's not nearly as full of holes as the TA was. Granted, there are no teeth in it, but there weren't any in the TA either.

The new open time would have allowed us to actually bid on VJA instead of crossing our fingers, open time would have filtered direct to pilots instead of being slid to "favorite son" tournament players at the last minute.

Maybe, maybe not. With all of the productivity losses, I'd bet that the guys that didn't want to be JAed (IE the guys already on pairings) would be JAed far more often than they are now.

It wouldn't have made a difference to the lance giveaways, since the top 3.2% will still get the turn lines--there aren't that many turn lines. Ask a junior lance if they're getting turns. Nope, the junior lance is using ELITT and TTGA and screwing up the net zero.

It would make a difference in being able to give away Capt trips though. Now, there are a minimum of 8% Lances available to take a trip from me. The TA would've made it a maximum of 3.2%, which is less, making me less flexible too.

I can't understand why you guys don't want protection from RJs, I've heard several different times that Republic has been in talks with SWA. But we voted to allow RJs, so have fun, at least we didn't get raises to go along with our codeshare loss.

The TA specifically ALLOWED RJs! Did you read tha TA or just the SWApAganda pieces?

Signed,

14 year Capt that voted no........

 

[Tripower455]

What are you talking about dude? If a day is red, its red. It does not matter if the net zero is up to 100, if a Friday is red and you have a three day starting that day, you can't trade off it. DTC is not meaningless.

Amen..... DTC cost me $17K last year by restricting weekend to weekend flying. That, ALONE was enough for a no vote.... The rest of the BS (no scope/codeshare protection, JA at work instead of home, less flexibility/productivity etc) was just gravy.

 

[DH2WN]

It's funny how most negotiations go with union against company where we have FO's vs. union.

SWAPA is the turd

 

[Luckie13]

OK....this should bring some interesting responses. I'm not trying to stir the pot and I'm not a conspiracy theorist but just found a couple of pieces of an interesting puzzle.

1. WN just decided to delay the codeshare with WestJet.
2. May 1st RP (Industry News section) says "WestJet in mid-April
announced they are studying the prospect of adding smaller
planes to its current Boeing -737 only fleet for the prospect
of developing regional routes that might be abandoned by
Air Canada/Jazz. WestJet has 78 -737s in its current fleet and by 2013 plans to take delivery of 43 more."
3. New TA language specifically mentioned a situation concerning acquiring a company that already owned smaller planes.

Looking forward to reading the discussion.

 

[DH2WN]

OK....this should bring some interesting responses. I'm not trying to stir the pot and I'm not a conspiracy theorist but just found a couple of pieces of an interesting puzzle.

1. WN just decided to delay the codeshare with WestJet.
2. May 1st RP (Industry News section) says "WestJet in mid-April
announced they are studying the prospect of adding smaller
planes to its current Boeing -737 only fleet for the prospect
of developing regional routes that might be abandoned by
Air Canada/Jazz. WestJet has 78 -737s in its current fleet and by 2013 plans to take delivery of 43 more."
3. New TA language specifically mentioned a situation concerning acquiring a company that already owned smaller planes.

Looking forward to reading the discussion.

US companies cannot outright buy a Canadian company. Your conspiracy theory is seriously flawed.