Senate hearing re Regional airlines

[Ridgeback]

If we demand a professional pay grade then we need to offer a professional product. I fly with guys all day long that are FAR from professional. So ditch the hair gel, Ipods, sunglasses hanging from your shoulder bars...or worse wearing them in the airpor, ect... I think most of you will understand my point....

 

[StarChecker]

Foreign Carriers for decades have used 300 hour pilots in the right seat of their heavy jets who have gone on to have stellar careers without as much as a scratch, so obviously it's not just time, or holding an ATP.

You cannot compare the ab initio training programs that international carriers use for their cadets to someone paying to sit right-seat in a 1900 for 250 hours, e.g. Gulfstream.

Very different situations...

 

[DX Rick]

If you are going to be an AIRLINE PILOT, you need to have an AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT License. Sorry to the low time guys, but you can build time pass the checkride, then get your Airline job. .

I agree. And no special favors for the military guys, you need to go build time else where if you're coming out of the military with only 500-1000 hours.

 

[skywiz]

the downside of higher pay

Yeah, a regional airline with first year pay higher than NetJets with their 2500tt minimums ain't going to happen any time soon.

A much more reasonable (and likely) figure would be the $35-40k ballpark, but even still I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

Just playing devil's advocate here... The increased pay may be a double edged sword - if Congress determines minimum pay of a higher amount, regionals will probably raise ticket prices across the board which could result in less demand for air travel and in turn less pilots = furloughs...

What is the lesser evil? Just thinking outside the box here...

 

[Hikoushi]

Just playing devil's advocate here... The increased pay may be a double edged sword - if Congress determines minimum pay of a higher amount, regionals will probably raise ticket prices across the board which could result in less demand for air travel and in turn less pilots = furloughs...

What is the lesser evil? Just thinking outside the box here...

If this were to only happen on the regional level, then that would mean the majors would not be similarly affected. So, it is conceivable that the majors and nationals would increase flights to satisfy the demand created by the regionals' flight reductions. In your scenario, it's possible that regional furloughs = majors' growth, and openings for better jobs and upward movement. I know, not likely, but hey. Outside the box is good.

 

[ratherbeflyen]

if Congress determines minimum pay of a higher amount, regionals will probably raise ticket prices across the board which could result in less demand for air travel and in turn less pilots = furloughs...

If you were to make every airline pay the second year pay rate from day one, or a flat 10k increase or something similar, I doubt it would equal .10 cents per ticket. Wouldn't surprise me if it was less than .01 cent per ticket. First year regional airline pilot pay is not the big cost in the airline industry.

I wonder how much money you would get if there was a pilot tax, like the TSA's fee, of 25 cents from each person who boarded your airplane. How many people a year to you move?

 

[skywiz]

If this were to only happen on the regional level, then that would mean the majors would not be similarly affected. So, it is conceivable that the majors and nationals would increase flights to satisfy the demand created by the regionals' flight reductions. In your scenario, it's possible that regional furloughs = majors' growth, and openings for better jobs and upward movement. I know, not likely, but hey. Outside the box is good.

I do see your point about majors' growth, however.... unfortunately when most people buy airline tickets, for example from KBUF to KLAX.... they don't buy Major airline tickets separate from regional tickets. They are paying for the regional + major airline tickets all in one bundle. This seems like it would have the potential to affect ALL pilots at the regional and major level. Now if it was just buying a ticket from KBUF to KJFK (regional only), this would apply to your example.... but most people that fly cross country probably take 2 flights on average (RJ and boeing/airbus) I would imagine. (i dont have the stats on that though)

I'm just afraid that Congress may come out with some really high pay (which again, not all that bad..) until ticket prices are jacked up so high that this industry gets dealt yet ANOTHER blow in addition to the recently sluggish economy and possible future high oil prices. Just things to think about... (Big Picture)

 

[OCP]

Foreign Carriers for decades have used 300 hour pilots in the right seat of their heavy jets who have gone on to have stellar careers without as much as a scratch, so obviously it's not just time, or holding an ATP.

One takeoff and a 6 hr flight followed by 1 landing, isn't quite the same as 5-6 legs a day in the weather all day.

 

[doh]

I agree. And no special favors for the military guys, you need to go build time else where if you're coming out of the military with only 500-1000 hours.

Afreakin'men!

 

[WayBack]

If you were to make every airline pay the second year pay rate from day one, or a flat 10k increase or something similar, I doubt it would equal .10 cents per ticket. Wouldn't surprise me if it was less than .01 cent per ticket. First year regional airline pilot pay is not the big cost in the airline industry.

I wonder how much money you would get if there was a pilot tax, like the TSA's fee, of 25 cents from each person who boarded your airplane. How many people a year to you move?

Thank God somone knows and understands this. Too bad the Unions don't! Otherwise they wouldn't be urging pilots to take paycuts to say their jobs.
Pilot pay will never drive an airline out of business!

 

[WWEfan]

I agree. And no special favors for the military guys, you need to go build time else where if you're coming out of the military with only 500-1000 hours.

Word. I'm not sure how military pilots ever got to be so "special" in the eyes of the majors. I've flown with good ones and bad ones. I just haven't seen anything to really differentiate them from civilian trained pilots.

Maybe they are just being rewarded for their service from patriotic members of airline managements?

 

[Papa Woody]

Colgan VP-Flight Operations Harry Mitchel told board members. "We hire professionals. They should show up fresh and ready to fly that aircraft."

Professionalism can only go so far to take care of basic needs.

Professionalism will not get you a room at a hotel.

Professionalism will not get you a dead-head ticket to your domecile.

Professionalism will not cover housing costs in the most expensive region in the country.

Professionalism will not counteract the insidious effects of fatigue.

Money will. Mr. Mitchel: pay pilots a professional salary first, and then we can talk about what they do with their off-duty time...

 

[skywiz]

Word. I'm not sure how military pilots ever got to be so "special" in the eyes of the majors. I've flown with good ones and bad ones. I just haven't seen anything to really differentiate them from civilian trained pilots.

Maybe they are just being rewarded for their service from patriotic members of airline managements?

500-1000hrs ex-military pilots?? What mil pilot leaves the military with that few hours? Any military pilot going straight to the majors has approx 2000-3000 hrs of fixed wing time. Realize also that especially now a days, ex mil pilots serve a minimum of 10 years flying in the military before they apply for civilian jobs.

I used to be a civilian CFI/I and am now a mil pilot. Its not that military pilots are so "special", its more to do with the fact that while they might have fewer hours than their civilian competition at the regional level, they have undergone different flight training programs and done various types of flying - some more demanding than others.

Even as a CFII with 700 + flight hours, I had to work very hard, especially toward the end of flight school. It wasn't easy. I remember a time that I wasn't yet ready (when I should of been) to carrier qual at the boat. I went to a progress review board and they basically told me that I had one more chance. If I didn't pass, I was kicked out.

There shouldn't be this animosity towards mil pilots. Every group pays their dues. While I respect the fact that regional pilots go thru lots of spending their own money for training, crappy schedules, low pay, etc... mil pilots pay their dues as well. It isn't a stroll in the park for 10 years of mil flying before walking into a major airline job.

 

[BoilerUP]

There shouldn't be this animosity towards mil pilots. Every group pays their dues. While I respect the fact that regional pilots go thru lots of spending their own money for training, crappy schedules, low pay, etc... mil pilots pay their dues as well. It isn't a stroll in the park for 10 years of mil flying before walking into a major airline job.

I don't think there's animosity toward military pilots per se....more the perception that they receive preferential treatment and hiring at major/legacy airlines because of their military background when pilots who went the civilian regional airline track tend to have substantially more flight experience than their military pilot competition.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It takes one and a half years for MIL pilot training. It takes six months for CIV. The DoD puts large amounts of money into flight training.