Senate hearing re Regional airlines

[WWEfan]

I agree. And no special favors for the military guys, you need to go build time else where if you're coming out of the military with only 500-1000 hours.

Word. I'm not sure how military pilots ever got to be so "special" in the eyes of the majors. I've flown with good ones and bad ones. I just haven't seen anything to really differentiate them from civilian trained pilots.

Maybe they are just being rewarded for their service from patriotic members of airline managements?

 

[Papa Woody]

Colgan VP-Flight Operations Harry Mitchel told board members. "We hire professionals. They should show up fresh and ready to fly that aircraft."

Professionalism can only go so far to take care of basic needs.

Professionalism will not get you a room at a hotel.

Professionalism will not get you a dead-head ticket to your domecile.

Professionalism will not cover housing costs in the most expensive region in the country.

Professionalism will not counteract the insidious effects of fatigue.

Money will. Mr. Mitchel: pay pilots a professional salary first, and then we can talk about what they do with their off-duty time...

 

[skywiz]

Word. I'm not sure how military pilots ever got to be so "special" in the eyes of the majors. I've flown with good ones and bad ones. I just haven't seen anything to really differentiate them from civilian trained pilots.

Maybe they are just being rewarded for their service from patriotic members of airline managements?

500-1000hrs ex-military pilots?? What mil pilot leaves the military with that few hours? Any military pilot going straight to the majors has approx 2000-3000 hrs of fixed wing time. Realize also that especially now a days, ex mil pilots serve a minimum of 10 years flying in the military before they apply for civilian jobs.

I used to be a civilian CFI/I and am now a mil pilot. Its not that military pilots are so "special", its more to do with the fact that while they might have fewer hours than their civilian competition at the regional level, they have undergone different flight training programs and done various types of flying - some more demanding than others.

Even as a CFII with 700 + flight hours, I had to work very hard, especially toward the end of flight school. It wasn't easy. I remember a time that I wasn't yet ready (when I should of been) to carrier qual at the boat. I went to a progress review board and they basically told me that I had one more chance. If I didn't pass, I was kicked out.

There shouldn't be this animosity towards mil pilots. Every group pays their dues. While I respect the fact that regional pilots go thru lots of spending their own money for training, crappy schedules, low pay, etc... mil pilots pay their dues as well. It isn't a stroll in the park for 10 years of mil flying before walking into a major airline job.

 

[BoilerUP]

There shouldn't be this animosity towards mil pilots. Every group pays their dues. While I respect the fact that regional pilots go thru lots of spending their own money for training, crappy schedules, low pay, etc... mil pilots pay their dues as well. It isn't a stroll in the park for 10 years of mil flying before walking into a major airline job.

I don't think there's animosity toward military pilots per se....more the perception that they receive preferential treatment and hiring at major/legacy airlines because of their military background when pilots who went the civilian regional airline track tend to have substantially more flight experience than their military pilot competition.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It takes one and a half years for MIL pilot training. It takes six months for CIV. The DoD puts large amounts of money into flight training.

 

[WayBack]

500-1000hrs ex-military pilots?? What mil pilot leaves the military with that few hours? Any military pilot going straight to the majors has approx 2000-3000 hrs of fixed wing time. Realize also that especially now a days, ex mil pilots serve a minimum of 10 years flying in the military before they apply for civilian jobs..

I know a guy who left the USAF after flying F-16s for 20 years....he had just over 2,000 hours TT.
Another guy I know, been flying Hornets for the last 7-8 years....he had 900TT when he interviewed at FedEx

 

[WayBack]

It takes one and a half years for MIL pilot training. It takes six months for CIV. The DoD puts large amounts of money into flight training.

Point being?
Yes, military pilots are the best trained pilots out there. That's a no brainer.
But how does dropping bombs and landing on an aircraft carrier relate to the 121 world?
Yes, they can learn, but as cheesey as it sounds. Civillian flight training is now being geared more towards airline operations....AQP?

 

[veneratio]

How about congress mandated pay, Im sure if pilots were compensated more, they could afford to buy hotel rooms, would not have to work as many hours to make a decent wage, be less stressed (stress causes fatigue), and would attract more qualified individuals.

 

[skywiz]

Point being?
Yes, military pilots are the best trained pilots out there. That's a no brainer.
But how does dropping bombs and landing on an aircraft carrier relate to the 121 world?
Yes, they can learn, but as cheesey as it sounds. Civillian flight training is now being geared more towards airline operations....AQP?

Actually, I went through 3 - 3.5 years of flight training (including training in fleet aircraft) before I even started flying missions in my fleet aircraft. We had the longest aviation training pipeline in the Navy.

Eventhough I am not an airline pilot, I am under the impression that the reason the majors like all the PIC time is that it shows you have been in a position to make decisions from the perspective of the "captain" or aircraft commander. They know you can fly, its really not that hard.

By the way, you are right... you don't land on carriers or drop bombs in the civilian world... you fly airways and ILSs. Of our mission, the part of it that consisted of flying to a land base ILS was the easy part.

The hard part was being the aircraft commander having to decide when to bingo(divert) back to home field because of an engine or hydraulic failure, dealing with emergencies or pitching decks and bolters around the boat when 900 miles from the nearest land with only 3 hrs of fuel, whether to go/no go because of some mechanical issue...but the mission HAS to get done(but done safely of course)... i.e. decision making at the PIC level. Its about handling a situation under pressure and in many times in foreign countries... but not in the standard flying from point A to point B (ILS to ILS) scenario. While this may not be the same flying that the airlines do... I would imagine the appeal from the Majors perspective is the value of the experience gained from decision making in a very dynamic environment.

Also, I am not under the impression than any major airline hires ex mil pilots exclusively. My understanding is that they hire a mix of different backrounds across the board.

 

[jonjuan]

How about congress mandated pay, Im sure if pilots were compensated more, they could afford to buy hotel rooms, would not have to work as many hours to make a decent wage, be less stressed (stress causes fatigue), and would attract more qualified individuals.

The problem is, most pilots would put the money in the bank and sleep in the crew room versus spending it on a hotel room. Work fewer hours? They would pick up open time on their "extra" days off to be able to pay for toys. Same stress, just more toys. (not that there's anything wrong with more toys.)

 

[PBRstreetgang]

500-1000hrs ex-military pilots?? What mil pilot leaves the military with that few hours? Any military pilot going straight to the majors has approx 2000-3000 hrs of fixed wing time. Realize also that especially now a days, ex mil pilots serve a minimum of 10 years flying in the military before they apply for civilian jobs.

I used to be a civilian CFI/I and am now a mil pilot. Its not that military pilots are so "special", its more to do with the fact that while they might have fewer hours than their civilian competition at the regional level, they have undergone different flight training programs and done various types of flying - some more demanding than others.

Even as a CFII with 700 + flight hours, I had to work very hard, especially toward the end of flight school. It wasn't easy. I remember a time that I wasn't yet ready (when I should of been) to carrier qual at the boat. I went to a progress review board and they basically told me that I had one more chance. If I didn't pass, I was kicked out.

There shouldn't be this animosity towards mil pilots. Every group pays their dues. While I respect the fact that regional pilots go thru lots of spending their own money for training, crappy schedules, low pay, etc... mil pilots pay their dues as well. It isn't a stroll in the park for 10 years of mil flying before walking into a major airline job.

Hey,
I have flown with a lot of military trained pilots, fixed wing and rotor. To a man they were a true pleasure, qualified and competent. The few who disparage military aviators are just envious and feel that their meteoric rise through the pilot ranks are being hampered by these military pilots. Military selection for pilot slots is intensive and very selective. Training for said pilots is high pressure, 0 defect oriented, with few M.Renslows proceed through the process. Gimme a military trained pilot, keep your puppy mill renslows for yourself.
If the "military mafia" keeps hiring their buddies, good on them, who needs more M.Renslows in the cockpit?
PBR

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Point being?
Yes, military pilots are the best trained pilots out there. That's a no brainer.
But how does dropping bombs and landing on an aircraft carrier relate to the 121 world?
Yes, they can learn, but as cheesey as it sounds. Civillian flight training is now being geared more towards airline operations....AQP?

AQP? What civilian flight school offers AQP? MPL?

 

[WayBack]

AQP? What civilian flight school offers AQP? MPL?

I was refering to the airlines.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I was refering to the airlines.

Airline training is being geared towards airline training? You lost me....

 

[Andy Neill]

How about congress mandated pay, Im sure if pilots were compensated more, they could afford to buy hotel rooms, would not have to work as many hours to make a decent wage, be less stressed (stress causes fatigue), and would attract more qualified individuals.

I do not like the idea of Congressionally mandated pay rates for the airlines. A better way to get the same result would be to require ALL airline pilots have ATP (or at the very least have the flight experience and written passed for an ATP). That would reduce the hiring pool and the number of qualified pilots willing to come in at current rates. The market would then move the pay as necessary. The ticket prices can surely stand it. How many airlines (especially the profitable ones) have any pilots on first year pay now anyway?

If
5% of a pilot workforce was in their first year and
30% of an airlines cost was in pilot pay

then
the cost of doubling the first year pay would be 1.5% of an airlines current costs. Since I believe there are fewer than 5% of the pilots getting 1st year pay and I believe that pilot pay accounts for less than 30% of an airlines total costs, the impact of doubling first year pay would be even less.

SkyWest is profitable. How many pilots were hired since 18 May 08?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The only way to attract qualified people is to make the profession more attractive. Until now experience has never been a major concern of airline execs. They have 12K apps sitting on their desk, and know that about 10K of them can do the job. It does not mean they want to hire 10K of them it just means they can get from point A to B in one piece.
As we have a glut of retirements in the next 10 to 15 years that experience level is not going to be there. The Air Force is hiring Academy Grads in to their UAV program. There is not going to be this glut of military personnel out there to jump on this job. Add to that, that it is now a 10 year commitment if you get your wings. Pilots are going to stay another 10 and get their retirement since the airlines no longer offer it.

The civilian world has come along way in 20 years in regards to its training quality, but that is drying up to. People like myself paid for school while going to school because there was a good paying job at the end of the tunnel. Now Best you can hope for is 160K a year in 20 to 30 years. I know if that was what I was looking at, I would not have come in to this industry.
That said. This issue needs to be dealt with and market forces will bear a lot of pressure. We as a profession need to fight and fight hard against the MPL, and make this profession worth coming in to once again. After all the ones that are around are going to be the ones that get to deal with whomever the company feels is qualified to sit in our right seats!

 

[Poahi]

So give me a proposed regulation that would fix this....

Whatever Congress does to 'fix' this will have nothing to do with the cause of 3407.

I'm pretty sure the cause of the crash will be due the pilots failure to maintain proper airspeed. Contributing factors will be the failure to maintain sterile cockpit procedures, fatigue, improper stall recovery techniques and training procedures that fail to demonstrate stall recovery techniques.

As far as 'fixes' go - Anyone see these possibilities?

Time while on commuting flights can't be considered rest if during a required rest period or immediately prior to a duty period
Multiple failures mean training starts over and there needs to be a 2 year period before someone with a serious failure like an airspeed failure can command a 121 flight
Mandated icing recognition procedures in the sim
Cold wx ops IOE or signoff
Minimum flight time experience for 121 pilots
Increase visibility or wx requirements for pilots with less than, say 200 hours in type (ie far beyond current limits)

Not on the table:
Pay increases for regional airline pilots
Banning commuting
meaningful changes in rest rules

What should happen:

I'm not necessarily basing this on 3407, but upgrades should not be a simply function of seniority. There should be peer review and a pilot should be able to prove a clean history and have support from peers and flight ops. No 121 captains with less than 3,000 hours. Serious sim failures should send them to the right seat for at least 6 months by law.

 

[rustypigeon]

... if Congress determines minimum pay of a higher amount...

There will never be a minimum wage for pilots. The only way we can hope to have pay increase is to limit the supply of pilots. The only way to limit the supply is through higher standards.

 

[PuffDriver]

Hey,
I have flown with a lot of military trained pilots, fixed wing and rotor. To a man they were a true pleasure, qualified and competent. The few who disparage military aviators are just envious and feel that their meteoric rise through the pilot ranks are being hampered by these military pilots. Military selection for pilot slots is intensive and very selective. Training for said pilots is high pressure, 0 defect oriented, with few M.Renslows proceed through the process. Gimme a military trained pilot, keep your puppy mill renslows for yourself.
If the "military mafia" keeps hiring their buddies, good on them, who needs more M.Renslows in the cockpit?
PBR

One simply has to go back through all of the fatal aviation accidents and look at the numbers of civ/mil trained to make a mockery of your post. Mil guys wouldn't like the results, and they would have some kind of excuse or deflect the subject to something else.

Give me a well trained, HUMBLE, pilot from either sector who knows that they don't know it all, and the operation will be successful every time.

 

[NuGuy]

There will never be a minimum wage for pilots. The only way we can hope to have pay increase is to limit the supply of pilots. The only way to limit the supply is through higher standards.

Not true...there was one. Look up Decision 83 and the subsequent legislation. Sure, it's ancient history, but the circumstances are strangely familiar.

Or just read the first few chapters of Flying the Line. I'm no ALPA cheerleader, BUT, what we are going through now is NOT the first time. Reading the first part of Flying the Line is like reading "current events", except for the Jennys.

Nu