Is Colgan toast?

[Sig]

This really ought to be trained.

I think it is going to be trained. Wait until the elected stuffed shirts begin their stumping on the issue- and what mandates will be imposed upon training departments everywhere. (Is you is, or is you ain't my constitchentsy?)

It is like the beta lockout system, as an example. What a friggin' stupid piece of knee-jerk crap! What comes down the pike (wink) over this is directly related to how much "DON'T JUST DO SOMETING, STAND THERE!" mentality is involved.

 

[Captainzero1]

Fair question. I will give a fair answer, from the heart (Miss USA 2009 jokes aside...)

In my opinion, two Part 121 pilots should not have failed to catch an approaching stall, then (ok, they were tired...they failed to catch it), then after they discovered the stall late, responded improperly.

The comments about "chip light" by the FO (sitting in the front of a Part 121 turboprop), etc, only add more pain to the misery.

This was Airmanship 101. Have I ever gotten a little slow on an approach? Sure. Have I missed a ATC heading change, or bungled a STAR? Sure. Landed a little harder than normal? Of course.

Have my copilot and I, collectively, fully stalled the airplane in ice (when we should have been "heads up" anyway), at night, then responded incorrectly?

Uh, Nope, haven't done that one yet. 50 passengers in the back in Buffalo weren't planning on it either.

In summary, at the end of the day, a pretty dum-dum error in the "pilot error" column caused this, in the "you gotta be sh--ing me" category.

Runaway trim? Ice lodged in elevator? Loss of EFIS, etc? Pilot has heart attack and heaves back on yoke as he flops around? Ok, I can accept this tragedy with a little less shock.

But a stall?

Not to repeat myself, but are you sh--ting me?

When I was in college, I studied the Eastern Airlines accident from the early 1970's with the L1011. Those pilots(3) flew an airplane into the everglades while discussing whether or not a gear light was a burnt out bulb or the gear was not down. A lot more than 50 people died and I also bet those guys were way more experienced than the Colgan crew and still screwed the pooch. In aviation. stuff happens and will contnue as long as we have the man/machine interface.

 

[MALSR]

After Colgan goes belly up maybe they can just change their name like Air Tran did with Valuejet.

 

[brokedash]

When I was in college, I studied the Eastern Airlines accident from the early 1970's with the L1011. Those pilots(3) flew an airplane into the everglades while discussing whether or not a gear light was a burnt out bulb or the gear was not down. A lot more than 50 people died and I also bet those guys were way more experienced than the Colgan crew and still screwed the pooch. In aviation. stuff happens and will contnue as long as we have the man/machine interface.

One thing you missed, in the 1970s CRM had yet to be developed. It had existed for about 2 decades when the Colgan crash occured. I don't know how much that will factor into the Colgan investigation, but I noticed a line or two in the transcript that indicate CRM may not have been in full effect before or during the stall.

 

[JSky26]

Anyone know how it will play out with the suit of the pilot's estates? I'll go out on a limb here and say (with no disrespect) that both of them probably aren't worth much.

Is there statute of limitations here on how deep these lawyers can go? Can they hit extended family? And if they do hit them...what can they go after specifically?

I ask these questions because it is one of those things that we seldom realize when we started this job but could prove to be financially devastating for not only us, but even for our families.

 

[satpak77]

When I was in college, I studied the Eastern Airlines accident from the early 1970's with the L1011. Those pilots(3) flew an airplane into the everglades while discussing whether or not a gear light was a burnt out bulb or the gear was not down. A lot more than 50 people died and I also bet those guys were way more experienced than the Colgan crew and still screwed the pooch. In aviation. stuff happens and will contnue as long as we have the man/machine interface.

Indeed, all good points. However you will have to search long and hard to find an accident where a crewed 121 airplane allowed the plane to literally stop flying in mid-air. Granted, dead is dead, but you see my point (or at least I think you do).

Anyone know how it will play out with the suit of the pilot's estates? I'll go out on a limb here and say (with no disrespect) that both of them probably aren't worth much.

Is there statute of limitations here on how deep these lawyers can go? Can they hit extended family? And if they do hit them...what can they go after specifically?

I ask these questions because it is one of those things that we seldom realize when we started this job but could prove to be financially devastating for not only us, but even for our families.

Any lawsuits will be filed in multiple courts, all of who have jurisdiction. CAL, whose HQ is in Houston (TX) will get sued, period, end of story. TX statute for filing the lawsuit is 2 years from the alleged event that resulted in damages. As a matter of fact, most states are 2-3 yrs for personal injury/negligence/etc type lawsuits.

Other people who will get sued, no questions asked, are below ("getting sued" and "being held liable", or "court ordered to pay out" are two different things. I can go down to the court and file a lawsuit against my own dog if I wanted) :

- Colgan
- FAA
- Flightsafety/Sim Provider
- Gulfstream Academy
- The last check airman who flew with each pilots (sad but true...)
- State of New York
- Bombardier (of course)
- Whoever 3rd party software/avionics company that links the stick shaker into the stall system
- Etc

Sadly, "ability to collect" is the mantra in when a personal injury attorney files a suit. It is very unlikely the dead pilot's estates will be pursued. As an aside, the Capt's estate might get sued, if it is shown that he indeed lied and/or withheld his checkride history and secured a job at Colgan, a job which put him PIC of a flight that he killed 50 people on, due to poor airmanship, which could have been reflected on his checkride history, which he covered up. If that is shown, yes, his assets could be pursued.

But besides something like that, the estates probably won't get touched.

CAL, Colgan, FAA will all get sued, no questions asked. The others will probably get sued but collecting on the others is a little harder. I mean, what did Bombardier have to do with this? (but, they will get sued, very likely.)

Colgan hired the guy, and "failed" to background him. CAL supposedly vets and monitors its feeders. The FAA monitors everybody.

Yes, lawsuits are a-coming.

 

[Flybywire44]

Regional pilots have no estates.

 

[G-force]

Re: ABCnews reports on Colgan Airlines!!!

And the sky is falling! Global warming! Everybody panic! Sheesh.

After seeing the ABCNEWS report 5/15/09,I'm really convinced that Colgan is TOAST!!
ABCNEWS just does not like Colgan Airlines or any other regional carrier!!!
www.abcnews.com 5/15/09

 

[climbhappy]

the smart play would be for Pinnacle Mgt to bankrupt colgan, transfer the planes to pinnacle, and fight it out in court for 10 years. losing the colgan name is a sure thing i would say...

 

[Grimper]

You underestimate how much Pinnacle management hates Pinnacle pilots and how committed they are to keeping Colgan and Pinnacle pilots separate.
Keep in mind as these hearing were wrapping up one Pinnacle pilot was receiving a warning letter that is part of the same sick policy referenced in the hearings while a separate pilot was receiving a letter for calling out fatigued.

Pinnacle management will bankrupt the whole operation before they ever act in good faith.

 

[Hypoxik]

perfect reason for pinchanickle and depressjet to merge. They both would benefit from this since sheputtle and sky pest are bigger than both PNCL and XJT. RAH and SKYW have a future plan unlike depressjet.

What fly 73's for an higher 8% overide, but only on those trips?

 

[cale42]

As an aside, the Capt's estate might get sued, if it is shown that he indeed lied and/or withheld his checkride history and secured a job at Colgan, a job which put him PIC of a flight that he killed 50 people on, due to poor airmanship, which could have been reflected on his checkride history, which he covered up. If that is shown, yes, his assets could be pursued.

This is kind of off topic, but this seems a gray area to me. I haven't filled out an application in a while but I don't recall itemizing which GA rides I failed. It was a "Have you ever failed a checkride" if the answer is yes, than you are asked to explain in the interview. I don't recall that ever going in a record anywhere and it obviously doesn't show up on PRIA records. I always felt GA failures were more about your attitude towards them than any vetting process. What are others experiences in this area?

cale

 

[satpak77]

This is kind of off topic, but this seems a gray area to me. I haven't filled out an application in a while but I don't recall itemizing which GA rides I failed. It was a "Have you ever failed a checkride" if the answer is yes, than you are asked to explain in the interview. I don't recall that ever going in a record anywhere and it obviously doesn't show up on PRIA records. I always felt GA failures were more about your attitude towards them than any vetting process. What are others experiences in this area?

cale

Good points. I think if it is demonstrated he was "less than forthcoming" etc etc versus "not required to be listed, so leave it blank" type thing, that is what will jam him up.

 

[30West]

After seeing the ABCNEWS report 5/15/09,I'm really convinced that Colgan is TOAST!!
ABCNEWS just does not like Colgan Airlines or any other regional carrier!!!
www.abcnews.com 5/15/09

Just like Pinnacle, Comair, Northwest, Delta, American, etc. were toast after all of their high profile crashes?
Valujet disappeared but didn't technically go out of business, they were re branded. I'm not sure what you mean by toast. Colgan will be the media whipping boy until the next time people get trapped on the tarmac for 12 hours or someone falls asleep at the yoke or heaven forbid someone else crashes.

 

[jmreii]

Indeed, all good points. However you will have to search long and hard to find an accident where a crewed 121 airplane allowed the plane to literally stop flying in mid-air. Granted, dead is dead, but you see my point (or at least I think you do).



Any lawsuits will be filed in multiple courts, all of who have jurisdiction. CAL, whose HQ is in Houston (TX) will get sued, period, end of story. TX statute for filing the lawsuit is 2 years from the alleged event that resulted in damages. As a matter of fact, most states are 2-3 yrs for personal injury/negligence/etc type lawsuits.

Other people who will get sued, no questions asked, are below ("getting sued" and "being held liable", or "court ordered to pay out" are two different things. I can go down to the court and file a lawsuit against my own dog if I wanted) :

- Colgan
- FAA
- Flightsafety/Sim Provider
- Gulfstream Academy
- The last check airman who flew with each pilots (sad but true...)
- State of New York
- Bombardier (of course)
- Whoever 3rd party software/avionics company that links the stick shaker into the stall system
- Etc

Sadly, "ability to collect" is the mantra in when a personal injury attorney files a suit. It is very unlikely the dead pilot's estates will be pursued. As an aside, the Capt's estate might get sued, if it is shown that he indeed lied and/or withheld his checkride history and secured a job at Colgan, a job which put him PIC of a flight that he killed 50 people on, due to poor airmanship, which could have been reflected on his checkride history, which he covered up. If that is shown, yes, his assets could be pursued.

But besides something like that, the estates probably won't get touched.

CAL, Colgan, FAA will all get sued, no questions asked. The others will probably get sued but collecting on the others is a little harder. I mean, what did Bombardier have to do with this? (but, they will get sued, very likely.)

Colgan hired the guy, and "failed" to background him. CAL supposedly vets and monitors its feeders. The FAA monitors everybody.

Yes, lawsuits are a-coming.

Eastern 401 crashed despite a cockpit crew with excellent background checks and having never failed a checkride with the exception being their last flight on December 29, 1972.

So what, whats your point?