Is Colgan toast?

[LazyLightnin']

Did Colgan recently change their requirements, or has it always been listed as 1000 hrs total?

 

[flynryan15]

Did Colgan recently change their requirements, or has it always been listed as 1000 hrs total?

Colgan's total time requirement changes with supply and demand. Early 2008 and late 2007 when everyone was hiring Colgan's minimums were 300/50.

 

[planejockey]

perfect reason for pinchanickle and depressjet to merge. They both would benefit from this since sheputtle and sky pest are bigger than both PNCL and XJT. RAH and SKYW have a future plan unlike depressjet.

 

[Long Time Gone]

This will be the impetus for Colgan to be fully merged with Pinnacle. PCL ALPA will get their wish of one list/one company, although a tragic crash was not the best way for it to happen.

You're the first I've seen to actually mention Pinnacle in this. I'm curious as to how many lawyers will have suit filed against Pinnacle also, since they're the holding company, and have had numerous accidents and incidents due to stupidity in the past.

When will the FAA finally crack down hard on Pinnacle? Yes, the Colgan accident belongs to Colgan, however, just as Skywest has a hand in ASA, Pinnacle has a hand in Colgan and is just as responsible.

 

[Sig]

Stick pusher training is not part of any program I have seen. I've had it demoed for me in the sim because I wanted to see what it looked like, but not a part of required training.

A rather prescient bit of "show me this," huh?

The upgrade program at PDT doesn't include it... because the -100 sim in CLT doesn't have a pusher. However, when we were going gangbusters and renting sim time elsewhere, if the sim was a -300 (SEA), you saw a fluke push (not due to a stall). From the folks who saw it, it was a mad scramble to hang on and remember where that danged shutoff switch was.

Every one of them had the same initial reaction.... and take a wild guess what that was.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

A rather prescient bit of "show me this," huh?

The upgrade program at PDT doesn't include it... because the -100 sim in CLT doesn't have a pusher. However, when we were going gangbusters and renting sim time elsewhere, if the sim was a -300 (SEA), you saw a fluke push (not due to a stall). From the folks who saw it, it was a mad scramble to hang on and remember where that danged shutoff switch was.

Every one of them had the same initial reaction.... and take a wild guess what that was.

Well put Sig. It is about muscle memory in cases like that. I would be hard pressed to find the S/O switch as little as I fly the 300. This really ought to be trained.

FYI... 2 airlines, 3 airplanes with pushers. I have never trained a pusher event.

 

[ratherbeflyen]

Well, Colgan has hull/liability through Delta's aircraft insurance co. Suits will probably be made against CO, FAA, Bombardier, Flight Safety, the Pilots estates, New York Port Authority, Buffalo Airport Authority, Alaska/Fedex/Ups (all mentioned in the CVR), the manufacturer of the stick shaker, pusher, ice itself, ALPA, Allah, Yahweh, Dali Lama, God, etc.

Sounds like you have a good future in suing the planet.

 

[G-force]

RE: SUING the FAA!!

The FAA can't be sued.

Yes Erlanger dude, they can be sued!!
It has happened before!!

Yes,Colgan probably is toast!!!

 

[30West]

Yes Erlanger dude, they can be sued!!
It has happened before!!

Yes,Colgan probably is toast!!!

And the sky is falling! Global warming! Everybody panic! Sheesh.

 

[satpak77]

The FAA can't be sued.

I guess your legal education is more than mine. Can't be sued? Tell that to JetBlue, Continental, American, et al and their respective well backed legal departments.

http://www.avvo.com/news/seven-airlines-file-lawsuit-against-faa-109.html

Be careful on the Bar Exam, tort law is a topic. You might brush up on it.

 

[Sig]

This really ought to be trained.

I think it is going to be trained. Wait until the elected stuffed shirts begin their stumping on the issue- and what mandates will be imposed upon training departments everywhere. (Is you is, or is you ain't my constitchentsy?)

It is like the beta lockout system, as an example. What a friggin' stupid piece of knee-jerk crap! What comes down the pike (wink) over this is directly related to how much "DON'T JUST DO SOMETING, STAND THERE!" mentality is involved.

 

[Captainzero1]

Fair question. I will give a fair answer, from the heart (Miss USA 2009 jokes aside...)

In my opinion, two Part 121 pilots should not have failed to catch an approaching stall, then (ok, they were tired...they failed to catch it), then after they discovered the stall late, responded improperly.

The comments about "chip light" by the FO (sitting in the front of a Part 121 turboprop), etc, only add more pain to the misery.

This was Airmanship 101. Have I ever gotten a little slow on an approach? Sure. Have I missed a ATC heading change, or bungled a STAR? Sure. Landed a little harder than normal? Of course.

Have my copilot and I, collectively, fully stalled the airplane in ice (when we should have been "heads up" anyway), at night, then responded incorrectly?

Uh, Nope, haven't done that one yet. 50 passengers in the back in Buffalo weren't planning on it either.

In summary, at the end of the day, a pretty dum-dum error in the "pilot error" column caused this, in the "you gotta be sh--ing me" category.

Runaway trim? Ice lodged in elevator? Loss of EFIS, etc? Pilot has heart attack and heaves back on yoke as he flops around? Ok, I can accept this tragedy with a little less shock.

But a stall?

Not to repeat myself, but are you sh--ting me?

When I was in college, I studied the Eastern Airlines accident from the early 1970's with the L1011. Those pilots(3) flew an airplane into the everglades while discussing whether or not a gear light was a burnt out bulb or the gear was not down. A lot more than 50 people died and I also bet those guys were way more experienced than the Colgan crew and still screwed the pooch. In aviation. stuff happens and will contnue as long as we have the man/machine interface.

 

[MALSR]

After Colgan goes belly up maybe they can just change their name like Air Tran did with Valuejet.

 

[brokedash]

When I was in college, I studied the Eastern Airlines accident from the early 1970's with the L1011. Those pilots(3) flew an airplane into the everglades while discussing whether or not a gear light was a burnt out bulb or the gear was not down. A lot more than 50 people died and I also bet those guys were way more experienced than the Colgan crew and still screwed the pooch. In aviation. stuff happens and will contnue as long as we have the man/machine interface.

One thing you missed, in the 1970s CRM had yet to be developed. It had existed for about 2 decades when the Colgan crash occured. I don't know how much that will factor into the Colgan investigation, but I noticed a line or two in the transcript that indicate CRM may not have been in full effect before or during the stall.

 

[JSky26]

Anyone know how it will play out with the suit of the pilot's estates? I'll go out on a limb here and say (with no disrespect) that both of them probably aren't worth much.

Is there statute of limitations here on how deep these lawyers can go? Can they hit extended family? And if they do hit them...what can they go after specifically?

I ask these questions because it is one of those things that we seldom realize when we started this job but could prove to be financially devastating for not only us, but even for our families.

 

[satpak77]

When I was in college, I studied the Eastern Airlines accident from the early 1970's with the L1011. Those pilots(3) flew an airplane into the everglades while discussing whether or not a gear light was a burnt out bulb or the gear was not down. A lot more than 50 people died and I also bet those guys were way more experienced than the Colgan crew and still screwed the pooch. In aviation. stuff happens and will contnue as long as we have the man/machine interface.

Indeed, all good points. However you will have to search long and hard to find an accident where a crewed 121 airplane allowed the plane to literally stop flying in mid-air. Granted, dead is dead, but you see my point (or at least I think you do).

Anyone know how it will play out with the suit of the pilot's estates? I'll go out on a limb here and say (with no disrespect) that both of them probably aren't worth much.

Is there statute of limitations here on how deep these lawyers can go? Can they hit extended family? And if they do hit them...what can they go after specifically?

I ask these questions because it is one of those things that we seldom realize when we started this job but could prove to be financially devastating for not only us, but even for our families.

Any lawsuits will be filed in multiple courts, all of who have jurisdiction. CAL, whose HQ is in Houston (TX) will get sued, period, end of story. TX statute for filing the lawsuit is 2 years from the alleged event that resulted in damages. As a matter of fact, most states are 2-3 yrs for personal injury/negligence/etc type lawsuits.

Other people who will get sued, no questions asked, are below ("getting sued" and "being held liable", or "court ordered to pay out" are two different things. I can go down to the court and file a lawsuit against my own dog if I wanted) :

- Colgan
- FAA
- Flightsafety/Sim Provider
- Gulfstream Academy
- The last check airman who flew with each pilots (sad but true...)
- State of New York
- Bombardier (of course)
- Whoever 3rd party software/avionics company that links the stick shaker into the stall system
- Etc

Sadly, "ability to collect" is the mantra in when a personal injury attorney files a suit. It is very unlikely the dead pilot's estates will be pursued. As an aside, the Capt's estate might get sued, if it is shown that he indeed lied and/or withheld his checkride history and secured a job at Colgan, a job which put him PIC of a flight that he killed 50 people on, due to poor airmanship, which could have been reflected on his checkride history, which he covered up. If that is shown, yes, his assets could be pursued.

But besides something like that, the estates probably won't get touched.

CAL, Colgan, FAA will all get sued, no questions asked. The others will probably get sued but collecting on the others is a little harder. I mean, what did Bombardier have to do with this? (but, they will get sued, very likely.)

Colgan hired the guy, and "failed" to background him. CAL supposedly vets and monitors its feeders. The FAA monitors everybody.

Yes, lawsuits are a-coming.

 

[Flybywire44]

Regional pilots have no estates.

 

[G-force]

Re: ABCnews reports on Colgan Airlines!!!

And the sky is falling! Global warming! Everybody panic! Sheesh.

After seeing the ABCNEWS report 5/15/09,I'm really convinced that Colgan is TOAST!!
ABCNEWS just does not like Colgan Airlines or any other regional carrier!!!
www.abcnews.com 5/15/09

 

[climbhappy]

the smart play would be for Pinnacle Mgt to bankrupt colgan, transfer the planes to pinnacle, and fight it out in court for 10 years. losing the colgan name is a sure thing i would say...

 

[Grimper]

You underestimate how much Pinnacle management hates Pinnacle pilots and how committed they are to keeping Colgan and Pinnacle pilots separate.
Keep in mind as these hearing were wrapping up one Pinnacle pilot was receiving a warning letter that is part of the same sick policy referenced in the hearings while a separate pilot was receiving a letter for calling out fatigued.

Pinnacle management will bankrupt the whole operation before they ever act in good faith.