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Amish RakeFight said:
He looks and speaks like he's about to have a coronary.
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With his dumb ass theories and negative impact on our profession it might not be a bad thing if he does! I have seen a lot of that guy lately he is the poster boy for what is wrong! You guys are paid enough there are plenty of guys out there that will do you job! Excuse me while I work on Management Bonuses!
 
More pay will never happen. The FAA will take action following this accident and implement sweeping changes to stall training, privacy acts, perhaps also to duty and rest requirements, and maybe even to cockpit warning systems. Unfortunately, it will be changes such as these that will take the place of increased salaries.
 
Yeah. "They" will get on pay right after acting on curbing fatigue - which has been on the NTSB's 10 Most Wanted list for almost 20 years.
 
IBNAV8R said:
Yeah. "They" will get on pay right after acting on curbing fatigue - which has been on the NTSB's 10 Most Wanted list for almost 20 years.
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Agreed whatever the FAA does it will only make life more difficult for the pilots and have no or dare I even say it a more negative result industry wide!
 
The first thing that needs to happen is management bonuses need to be brought under control in this (and other) industries. The focal point of management is not safe operations, customer service and I dare say it is not even in sound business planning. Management in America has only two things it is concerned about these days: 1) Securing large bonuses that are not performance related and 2) finding ways to to get short bursts in stock prices with no regard to long term effects. Nothing else matters in American management in this day and age.
 
NEDude said:
The first thing that needs to happen is management bonuses need to be brought under control in this (and other) industries. The focal point of management is not safe operations, customer service and I dare say it is not even in sound business planning. Management in America has only two things it is concerned about these days: 1) Securing large bonuses that are not performance related and 2) finding ways to to get short bursts in stock prices with no regard to long term effects. Nothing else matters in American management in this day and age.
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''''''''''
 
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NEDude said:
The first thing that needs to happen is management bonuses need to be brought under control in this (and other) industries. The focal point of management is not safe operations, customer service and I dare say it is not even in sound business planning. Management in America has only two things it is concerned about these days: 1) Securing large bonuses that are not performance related and 2) finding ways to to get short bursts in stock prices with no regard to long term effects. Nothing else matters in American management in this day and age.
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YUP!!!!!
And they do it while hiding behind the law. Claiming it is their fiduciary duty under law to provide for the owner/stock holders.
And with regards to the law, they are right. So the law must be changed.

Take care.
Joe.
 
The thing that NOBODY seems to understand is that better overall compensation will result in sharper individuals making a career choice to become pilots. Its really a question of who do we want in the cockpit in the first place?
 
Jar Jar said:
The thing that NOBODY seems to understand is that better overall compensation will result in sharper individuals making a career choice to become pilots. Its really a question of who do we want in the cockpit in the first place?
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Apparently you didn't watch Captain Sully present his case before congress. He gets it. Many of us do, unfortunately it seems to be drowned out by those who don't.
 
Jar Jar said:
You mean this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1D-2Q7uTSc

I've seen it, and its a solid point that needs to be driven home in the media.
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Yes, and IMHO, it's a step toward understanding "the other side."

Management isn't going to just throw money at us and hope their problems go away. Money is a recruiting tool, and a motivator. If they're going to invest more in us, they're going to expect more of us (or in some cases, our replacements).
 
I remember back in about 1994 when there was the terrible ATR crash in Roselawn Indiana the same thing happened. There were hearings on TV and there was a huge article in the USA Today about pay and working conditions at the regionals. The public cared for about 2 or 3 days and that was last they ever thought about it. When they booked their next airline trip they probably did what they always do, they bought the cheapest ticket.

The problem that we've always had in the USA except for a few very short peiods of time is way too many pilots and way too few decent jobs. As long as companies have a large supply of pilots in need of work they don't have any reason to pay more than they absolutely have to. There never seems to be an end to the ranks of new people entering this profession who are willing to work cheaply. When things get tight the industry doesn't raise pay it just lowers the hiring qualifications. The whole industry is centered around cost reduction and that's the driving force behind everything. I don't see an end to this unless people simply stop entering the profession and in this economy there are so many experienced pilots out of work that even that wouldn't help. If we didn't produce any new commercial pilots in this country for the next five years there's so many pilots out of work that nobody would even notice.
 
fam62c said:
I remember back in about 1994 when there was the terrible ATR crash in Roselawn Indiana the same thing happened. There were hearings on TV and there was a huge article in the USA Today about pay and working conditions at the regionals. The public cared for about 2 or 3 days and that was last they ever thought about it. When they booked their next airline trip they probably did what they always do, they bought the cheapest ticket.


Not sure if it's still in print, but one of Eagle's (actually Simmons') captains wrote a book about that crash. I think he went on TV, too. I highly recommend the book. It's called "Unheeded Warning"- I can't remember his name.
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I am sure the average pax would like to see pilots get paid more-but not at the cost of increased ticket prices. Heavan forbid! The pax that were interviewed should have been asked if they will willing to help with paying pilots more by paying higher ticket prices. Sounds reasonable in theory right?
 
One interesting note is that apparantely CJC has a locality pay scale for MGMT folks. Meaning they get paid more if they work in EWR because the increased cost of living. When asked if they have that for the pilots, HM responded no because we need to negotiate that with CJCALPA. I bet they were just about to give that to us then ALPA appeared and ruined everything.
 
Roger Cohen tries to make it sound simple; more pay will not make for a better, safer pilot. It's not that simple, Roger.

At $16,000 to $23,000 per year, (gross), a pilot cannot afford to live in most hub cities. If she can't afford to live in domecile, she has to commute. If she's commuting, she's not resting. And then there's the whole issue of scheduling the commute so she doesn't have to spend 12 hours in a crew room immediately prior to her duty time.

So, Mr. Cohen,....can the lack of a livable pilot wage be considered a safety issue for pilots (AND PASSENGERS)? Will better pay make for a better, safer pilot?
 
Commuting is a choice for these employees - not a requirement of the employer. Regardless of where you live, you are expected to show up to work well rested, clean, crisp, professional, ready for duty, etc. end of story.

Seems as though one has to be able to afford to work for a living in this industry as opposed to the other way around these days.
 
Slick said:
Roger Cohen tries to make it sound simple; more pay will not make for a better, safer pilot. It's not that simple, Roger.

At $16,000 to $23,000 per year, (gross), a pilot cannot afford to live in most hub cities. If she can't afford to live in domecile, she has to commute. If she's commuting, she's not resting. And then there's the whole issue of scheduling the commute so she doesn't have to spend 12 hours in a crew room immediately prior to her duty time.

So, Mr. Cohen,....can the lack of a livable pilot wage be considered a safety issue for pilots (AND PASSENGERS)? Will better pay make for a better, safer pilot?
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On that same note though, there are Major Airline widebody CA's that commute as well. Hell I know a few that commute from England to Hong Kong!
 
Pilots forget that passengers can careless how much we really make. And how little of sleep we get.
Just get me there for cheap!
 
Agreed whatever the FAA does it will only make life more difficult for the pilots and have no or dare I even say it a more negative result industry wide!
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If the past has any precedent, the NTSB will make a recommendation to the FAA and the FAA will do noting about it--because they are in bed with the airlines, and the airlines won't want them to do anything about it.

Lets say they do raise the minimum pay, how is that going to affect anything? Plus do you think it will be a retroactive raise, so we can all get paid for doing time?
 
NEDude said:
The first thing that needs to happen is management bonuses need to be brought under control in this (and other) industries. The focal point of management is not safe operations, customer service and I dare say it is not even in sound business planning. Management in America has only two things it is concerned about these days: 1) Securing large bonuses that are not performance related and 2) finding ways to to get short bursts in stock prices with no regard to long term effects. Nothing else matters in American management in this day and age.
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This has got to be one of the most ignorant posts I've read on this site. That says a lot.
 
Jar Jar said:
The thing that NOBODY seems to understand is that better overall compensation will result in sharper individuals making a career choice to become pilots. Its really a question of who do we want in the cockpit in the first place?
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No, the real question is whether the passengers will PAY for it. I mean, if Airline X and Y are a dollar apart on airfare, you can bet that Joe White Trash go with whoever's cheapest; I heard that A LOT when I was a travel agent in the late 90s.

As long as they get their 100 dollar transcontinental ticket; the traveling public couldnt care less.
 
dispatchguy said:
No, the real question is whether the passengers will PAY for it. I mean, if Airline X and Y are a dollar apart on airfare, you can bet that Joe White Trash go with whoever's cheapest; I heard that A LOT when I was a travel agent in the late 90s.

As long as they get their 100 dollar transcontinental ticket; the traveling public couldnt care less.
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Is it 100% pass on to the customer?

Is managment managaing properly? Recall, management is too quick to come to labor to relief to cover for their mistakes.
 

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