Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

QX upgrade out of seniority

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

MALSR

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Posts
301
Great to know that management has decided to upgraded an assistant chief pilot (currently an fo) out of seniority. Although upgrading management pilots out of seniority is nothing new at Horizon, this becomes even more unsettling given the fact that it is occurring at a time of furloughs, captain downgrades, and cost reductions. I hope for the sake of integrity, that this person chooses to sit right seat instead of left.
 
I dunno. I think the seniority system certainly has it's bug. There should also be some sort of merit based system to go with it. I know of more than a couple of CA's that have no business being in the left seat. Just because you pass a type ride and have the right number doesn't mean that you should own your position.

Sounds like this guy has worked a little extra and received some compensation for it. I wish more airlines would do that but the unions would never allow for anything that could be construed as "unequal" or has merit involved.
 
I dunno. I think the seniority system certainly has it's bug. There should also be some sort of merit based system to go with it. I know of more than a couple of CA's that have no business being in the left seat. Just because you pass a type ride and have the right number doesn't mean that you should own your position.

Sounds like this guy has worked a little extra and received some compensation for it. I wish more airlines would do that but the unions would never allow for anything that could be construed as "unequal" or has merit involved.

I agree with your intent, but a system that awards things based on merit is certain to become a system that awards things based on chronyism and ass kissing. I work hard, I do my job right.. but I'm not interested in playing golf with my Chief Pilot on the weekend to win an upgrade slot. It just doesn't work.
 
Last edited:
I agree with your intent, but a system that awards things based on merit is certain to become a system that awards things based on chronyism and ass kissing. I work hard, I do my job right.. but I'm not interested in playing golf with my Chief Pilot on the weekend to win an upgrade slot. It just doesn't work.

What he said.
 
I agree with your intent, but a system that awards things based on merit is certain to become a system that awards things based on chronyism and ass kissing. I work hard, I do my job right.. but I'm not interested in playing golf with my Chief Pilot on the weekend to win an upgrade slot. It just doesn't work.

People in the "real world" get compensated and promotions based on their performance and merit. It isn't all ass kissing and chronyism. I think the biggest problem with choosing upgrades based on a system like that is the fact that we work on our own 99% of the time, and if there isn't an incident, your performance will never even been noticed by anyone other than the other pilot.
 
Nope. Just your standard brown-nosing line-cutter that does quite well in management at QX.

I guess that makes me a brown noser too. I look to be involved with different aspects in the company. It won't do me a bit of good at my company but it may help diversify my resume if suddenly I find myself unable to fly.

The anti-achievement mentality lives on today.
 
Great to know that management has decided to upgraded an assistant chief pilot (currently an fo) out of seniority. Although upgrading management pilots out of seniority is nothing new at Horizon, this becomes even more unsettling given the fact that it is occurring at a time of furloughs, captain downgrades, and cost reductions. I hope for the sake of integrity, that this person chooses to sit right seat instead of left.

He's a cheif pilot. He's employed outside of the contract. Yeah life sucks for everyone right now, but your choosing to focus on something superfluous.
 
I guess that makes me a brown noser too. I look to be involved with different aspects in the company. It won't do me a bit of good at my company but it may help diversify my resume if suddenly I find myself unable to fly.

The anti-achievement mentality lives on today.

I don't follow: In order to be involved with "different aspects" of your company, you are required to kiss-ass and accept benefits not available to a regular line pilot of your seniority?

I get to be involved with "different aspects" than a regular line pilot (as a union volunteer) and I don't have to kiss anyone's ass to do so.

ACPs at QX are hired for one reason: they can be relied upon to say "yes" to their bosses and "no" to their subordinates. Merit (as in, years of exemplary service and perhaps even some experience as a line captain) doesn't really enter into the equation.

I'm not anti-acheivement at all -- I, and most of my fellow line pilots work hard to achieve a very worthwhile goal: delivering passengers safely to their destinations. Any other considerations one has in mind while working as a professional pilot are, in my view, strictly extracurricular, and that includes buffing one's resume by taking an ACP job.
 
He's a cheif pilot. He's employed outside of the contract. Yeah life sucks for everyone right now, but your choosing to focus on something superfluous.

Eroding pilot morale for essentially no purpose is not superfluous. In fact, it's asinine. But that never stopped management at QX.

They're picking a fight they don't need to pick.
 
He's a cheif pilot. He's employed outside of the contract. Yeah life sucks for everyone right now, but your choosing to focus on something superfluous.

I don't think its that at all. The problem is that Horizon hires FOs for management positions because they know an FO will be a yes-man for them. If not its no upgrade for you. This way, management has someone in their pocket, and not on the side of the pilots. They dangle the carrot. If this was not true they would never hire an FO, they would hire a captain for the job like most companys.
 
I was aghast when I discovered the QX ACP I was talking to was also a QX FO. WTF. I have a hard time respecting certain managers anyway, to be lectured by an FO would absolutely take the cake. My sympathies to you all.
 
If this was not true they would never hire an FO, they would hire a captain for the job like most companys.

Was there a Captain that wanted the job?

to be lectured by an FO would absolutely take the cake.

Exactly why they Upgrade the guy. To give a false air of legitimacy to his 'authority.'
 
Last edited:
Maybe it's the first time you've seen it, but I can assure you this happens everywhere and has for a long time.
Usually it's because there is not a Captain deranged enough to want the job and the Ops Specs require whomever holds the position to have a Type.
It does suck, but for what it's worth, it's a miserable job and he's going to be hating life. There's a reason they have to dip so low to fill it.
 
I don't follow: In order to be involved with "different aspects" of your company, you are required to kiss-ass and accept benefits not available to a regular line pilot of your seniority?


I'm not anti-acheivement at all -- I, and most of my fellow line pilots work hard to achieve a very worthwhile goal: delivering passengers safely to their destinations. Any other considerations one has in mind while working as a professional pilot are, in my view, strictly extracurricular, and that includes buffing one's resume by taking an ACP job.

This what I am talking about. Just because someone has colored outside of the lines to further where he/she is in their career, generally the rank and file look to tar and feather that person. They are called brown noser and yes-men. In some cases they are, in other cases no. However, when you work for the company and not the contract, you are duty bound to operate in the companies best interest. I can enough arguments about company interest to demonstrate that a happy work group equates to a better product produced. There are still times to say no though.

Most of us have worked hard to get where we are. I've got a wife, kids and mortgage and worked my tail to get where I am now. I still have further to go but I will keep doing it. But once again, whenever someone steps out of line to achieve what is best for themselves and family, they get the back of the hand. It has become the seniority mentality of believing, "Only when it is your turn." Merit completely falls by the way side with that thought structure.

I'll catch a bunch of flack for this but it really doesn't matter. When it comes to bettering my position in life, I have no compunction at all about stepping out of line. If I can get a better job within the company when I beat of a more senior guy, I am all for it. You, the furloughed FO, the super senior captain or anyone else pays my bills or feeds my kids. It is MY responsibility so I if step on someones elses toes in the effort, I'll apologize and mean it but in the end, its to damn bad. I'll help out just about anyone but in the end it comes down to me and and how well I provide for my family.
 
I know for sure this has been grieved by the teamsters, especially when GH upgraded. I also heard the union has agreed to let this to continue since QX has been upgrading ACP's since the beginning of time.

On a side note: WHY DOES A COMPANY OF 650'ish PILOTS AND DECLINING HAVE 5 ASSISTANT CHIEF PILOTS!!!
 
Great to know that management has decided to upgraded an assistant chief pilot (currently an fo) out of seniority. Although upgrading management pilots out of seniority is nothing new at Horizon, this becomes even more unsettling given the fact that it is occurring at a time of furloughs, captain downgrades, and cost reductions. I hope for the sake of integrity, that this person chooses to sit right seat instead of left.

So they finally upgraded Lacy huh? I always knew that she'd kiss enough a$$......
 
These ACP positions are management positions, ie not based on seniority. Everyone had the chance to at least apply for it.

I've never seen the current QX contract, but I'm guessing that it doesn't address the hiring of management personnel. So the union will file a grievance over it to make it look like they are putting up the good fight, but you already know what the outcome will be.

If the contract does address this, then please correct me. This type of thing happens all over and is not unique to QX.

As far as being "yes men", that is just laughable. Would you call a Colonel a yes man because he takes orders from a General? If you owned a business, would you want your employees to disregard your instructions? The ACP is not the top of the food chain. Sure there is alot of dicresion, but the "A" in ACP stands for assistant. There are higer ups they answer to. Can you imagine if every ACP was independent and could do what ever they wanted? How about 5 different sick policies?
 
The same lacy that is a tall blonde? On another note it 's disgusting to say that you'd consider crossing a picket line. Really, you never do that.
 
This what I am talking about. Just because someone has colored outside of the lines to further where he/she is in their career, generally the rank and file look to tar and feather that person. They are called brown noser and yes-men. In some cases they are, in other cases no. However, when you work for the company and not the contract, you are duty bound to operate in the companies best interest. I can enough arguments about company interest to demonstrate that a happy work group equates to a better product produced. There are still times to say no though.

Most of us have worked hard to get where we are. I've got a wife, kids and mortgage and worked my tail to get where I am now. I still have further to go but I will keep doing it. But once again, whenever someone steps out of line to achieve what is best for themselves and family, they get the back of the hand. It has become the seniority mentality of believing, "Only when it is your turn." Merit completely falls by the way side with that thought structure.

I'll catch a bunch of flack for this but it really doesn't matter. When it comes to bettering my position in life, I have no compunction at all about stepping out of line. If I can get a better job within the company when I beat of a more senior guy, I am all for it. You, the furloughed FO, the super senior captain or anyone else pays my bills or feeds my kids. It is MY responsibility so I if step on someones elses toes in the effort, I'll apologize and mean it but in the end, its to damn bad. I'll help out just about anyone but in the end it comes down to me and and how well I provide for my family.

Not from me you won't. Nice post.
 
An ACP that is an FO is not unique to QX. We had at least 2 of them at eagle, one in ORD and one in DFW. Though they were not upgraded to the best of my knowledge and thier pay was negotiated, usually close to what they made the previous year.

The only reason i can think anyone would want that job is to be home every night, but why not just bid day trips. jmo.
 
Old news they have done it for years, Spike, Todd, Gene (VP). I am assuming, Lacy, the former Denver ACP (by the way, very cool guy) and the gal who took over Todd's position in PDX. Have all been given the chance. They can and will fly the line when and if there is a work action, sorry.
 
These ACP positions are management positions, ie not based on seniority. Everyone had the chance to at least apply for it.

I've never seen the current QX contract, but I'm guessing that it doesn't address the hiring of management personnel. So the union will file a grievance over it to make it look like they are putting up the good fight, but you already know what the outcome will be.

If the contract does address this, then please correct me. This type of thing happens all over and is not unique to QX.

As far as being "yes men", that is just laughable. Would you call a Colonel a yes man because he takes orders from a General? If you owned a business, would you want your employees to disregard your instructions? The ACP is not the top of the food chain. Sure there is alot of dicresion, but the "A" in ACP stands for assistant. There are higer ups they answer to. Can you imagine if every ACP was independent and could do what ever they wanted? How about 5 different sick policies?

You've obviously never worked for QX. ACPs are hired cause they're yes men, literally. They look for people who will break the contract when it serves management's interests. "Fly then grieve it" They'll say when it comes down to it. They want people who won't hesitate to stick it to your average line pilot.

Section 19 talks about pilots transfering to management. And in fact, there was/is a greivance becaue good 'ol Gene Hann upgraded out of senoirty because "I'm the VP of flight ops and I want to be a captain, so there" (He was only about 50 numbers from the bottom when that mess started) was pretty much his statement to the union. I suspect that QX pilots still have the same distrust of management.
 
Last edited:
Depends on if I agree with how far the company or union has gone.

so you are willing to "scab" then? that is what you are saying, right?? well if that's the case, then please don't leave QX.

Mookie
 
You've obviously never worked for QX. ACPs are hired cause they're yes men, literally. They look for people who will break the contract when it serves management's interests. "Fly then grieve it" They'll say when it comes down to it. They want people who won't hesitate to stick it to your average line pilot.

Section 19 talks about pilots transfering to management. And in fact, there was/is a greivance becaue good 'ol Gene Hann upgraded out of senoirty because "I'm the VP of flight ops and I want to be a captain, so there" (He was only about 50 numbers from the bottom when that mess started) was pretty much his statement to the union. I suspect that QX pilots still have the same distrust of management.


How did the GH grievance turn out?
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom