Recognizing Sorbie and Evans

[Rez O. Lewshun]

With the vote in the past and the future of the jetblue pilots in flux and in question as a unified group....

Sorbie and Evans are two pilots that took character to task and made a respected and honorable effort...

They simply offered a vehicle with the ability for the JB pilot group to fashion themselves. By creating a policy manual and C&BL, they put themselves between a rock and a hard place. If they provided no documents then they would have been chided for being to vague. However, the documents gave the BoBs the leverage to argue the details. A diversionary tactic...

It was never about the details. It was about the fundamental basics of representation.....

In addition, too many JB pilots were looking for a service and not self rule.

It is easy to stay quiet and keep your head down, showing up to work and doing your job.... Or worse justifying a crap sandwhich. Or shameful to cut down the effort instead of trying to assist the fundamentals. Sorbie and Evans did none of it.... They might not have been successful.... But at least they had the character and fortitude to offer the JB pilots a chance...

Better to have gone down swinging, than to have never stepped up to the plate....

 

[PCL_128]

Agreed. They deserve a lot of credit for stepping up to the plate and trying their best to get the job done. I hear an ALPA drive may be starting up before the end of the year. Let's hope it's more successful than the independent drive.

 

[clickclickboom]

You mean this?

http://www.jetbluealpa.info/?b1b7cb08

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Well said.
They'll never buy a beverage if I see them in a layover bar.

 

[pilotyip]

But a secret ballot gave the majority of the pilots what they wanted. Many friends work there, all former union members and they did not want the crap that comes with a union, they figured it was worse than the crap they presently get from management. Maybe EFCA will pass and they then will have no choice in being union or not.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This thread is about two guys that had the guts to push forward on thier beliefs.... there are plenty of threads that discuss your hijack attempt....

This thread is about Evans and Sorbie

 

[PsubS]

My hat is off to both Mike and Bill--I never heard a non-productive word out of either one of them. Their focus was for smart representation of our pilot group.

This incessant carping on the "BoB's" is silly, though. They had a position, just as the pro-union camp had their position. They simply worked harder to shore up support for their position. Any documentation that they used was fair game. Guys--those documents were, after all, in the public domain. If they didn't measure up, that's our fault. We can do better.

Here's my main point. We only have ourselves to blame for the failed bid. This red herring "BoB hunt" is simply a distraction, a way of focusing your anger on someone tangible, rather than your...our...own failings as a group. It is also very counterproductive to those who are not in the far 20% of either side. The hate talk drives people away from your side.

Let's stop the immature accusations and vindictive bickering about them and move on. There are efforts underway to convince others of the need for representation.

You can either attempt to sway opinions, or fan the fires of contempt. I think you get more votes if you remain enthusiastic, not hateful.

Just thinkin'...

 

[pilotyip]

so what

This thread is about two guys that had the guts to push forward on thier beliefs.... there are plenty of threads that discuss your hijack attempt....

This thread is about Evans and Sorbie

Of course they pushed it, but it wasn't not wanted. The secret vote ensured the rights of the workers.

 

[Deli Guy]

This thread is about two guys that had the guts to push forward on thier beliefs.... there are plenty of threads that discuss your hijack attempt....

This thread is about Evans and Sorbie

I do not agree with you often, but these guys deserve to drink free for life. Maybe a dinner or three as well. Thanks guys.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Many friends work there, all former union members and they did not want the crap that comes with a union...

What you meant to say was, "...all former union members who BLAME ALPA for their furloughs instead of blaming their respective MECs..."

At least that would be more honest.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Hopefully the Pilot group appreciates what Sorbie and Evans tried to accomplish: Representation BY Jetblue pilots FOR Jetblue pilots. They didn't go to ALPA for a reason, and with a little luck, the Jetblue Pilots will remember this when ALPA shows up in the future.

Kudos to Sorbie and Evans!

 

[tico]

But a secret ballot gave the majority of the pilots what they wanted. Many friends work there, all former union members and they did not want the crap that comes with a union, they figured it was worse than the crap they presently get from management. Maybe EFCA will pass and they then will have no choice in being union or not.

Yip, you have your own corner in your own reality and as such I read your postings with an open mind. You have obviously very little or no experience with a union.

A national union such as ALPA serves two purposes. Because they have national voice they weigh in on safety, work environment, retirement, aircraft design etc......
At the local level each MEC, rightfully elected by willing and active membership, negotiates a CBA that includes safety, security, retirement, work rules, scope and detail of work, rates of pay, disciplinary process ,etc............
Yip, human nature is such that the utopian experience that we all desire can not ever be a reality.....This ever more true in such work environments that are seniority based....The degredation of the experience is proportional to the time and distance away from the founders. Jet Blue is one of the most obvious examples of this phenomena....The founders in the ownership side are no longer present and the founders on the labor side exist in the top 10% of the seniority list. The new leadership that rotates through at a rather alarming rate is trying to move forward an idea that only works in the founding stages....The "leadership" on the labor side is demonstrating the "suburban american prince attitude" of "I've got mine and I am pulling up the ladder". This leaves a large majority who are discontent and discouraged. They however are not yet ready to abandon that dream that brought them to Jet Blue. A work place where all is well and everyone loves and respects everyone and there is plenty to go around for everyone.
Your friends that you speak of are in one of those two categories. They already have "their's" or they are not ready to do a reality check. In the absence of "Utopia" a union serves a very real purpose. It is a check valve in the disciplinary process and it provides guidance to the ever-changing face of management in their interactions with the unionized employees.
Unfortunately, most pilots come from the "suburban american experience". They want all the benefit of a union but they care little for the effort that it takes to have a good one. They are unwilling to give up time from their lives to stay informed, to vote, to be involved, to seek office at the local level, to support those that are elected, to push the message out into their communities. When the process no longer works you here them saying things such as, "unions suck", "alpa sucks", "what has the union done for me" etc.......
ALPA is simply a "roof" being held up by the pillars of its locally represented councils. A lot of time has passed since brother Dave Behnke met with the "original six" from American, United and Northwest in 1930 and formed the framework of ALPA. Pilots back then were good, solid, hard-working blue collar workers and they were proud of it....
Today"s "white collar" pilot is a far cry from that and most have neither the integrity nor the intestinal fortitude to be good union members. Having said that, the total void of leadership skills, morality and integrity demonstrated by airline leadership(jet blue included) brings the need of representation by a union to the forefront.
I would hope for the Jet Blue pilots that they will find their way to representation that meets their needs. The selfishness demonstrated by the top and the anger and frustration demonstrated by the bottom need to be forged together so that they may go forward with a common bond and provide an experience that works for all the members.........

 

[pilotyip]

You are correct

Yip, you have your own corner in your own reality and as such I read your postings with an open mind. You have obviously very little or no experience with a union.

That is correct if you do not count former membership as a crewmember in ALPA and IBT.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That is correct if you do not count former membership as a crewmember in ALPA and IBT.

The member gets to decide on his own accord if he will be proactive and participatory

OR

if he will be apathetic and indifferent.....


Evans and Sorbie were the former..... in addition, they went into unchartered territory, where only a few have gone.... certianly not I nor you.... or most of us.....

 

[pilotyip]

Wtf II?

The member gets to decide on his own accord if he will be proactive and participatory

OR

if he will be apathetic and indifferent.....


Evans and Sorbie were the former..... in addition, they went into unchartered territory, where only a few have gone.... certianly not I nor you.... or most of us.....

Way too deep for me

 

[shadesofBS]

My hat is off to both Mike and Bill--I never heard a non-productive word out of either one of them. Their focus was for smart representation of our pilot group.

This incessant carping on the "BoB's" is silly, though. They had a position, just as the pro-union camp had their position. They simply worked harder to shore up support for their position. Any documentation that they used was fair game. Guys--those documents were, after all, in the public domain. If they didn't measure up, that's our fault. We can do better.

Here's my main point. We only have ourselves to blame for the failed bid. This red herring "BoB hunt" is simply a distraction, a way of focusing your anger on someone tangible, rather than your...our...own failings as a group. It is also very counterproductive to those who are not in the far 20% of either side. The hate talk drives people away from your side.

Let's stop the immature accusations and vindictive bickering about them and move on. There are efforts underway to convince others of the need for representation.

You can either attempt to sway opinions, or fan the fires of contempt. I think you get more votes if you remain enthusiastic, not hateful.

Just thinkin'...

The BoBs ran a smear campaign filled with lies.

They set us back. Our insurance will get worse this year. No work rules. No COLA.

Why shouldn't they be held accountable?

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

BoB

http://www.traileraddict.com/clip/monsters-vs-aliens/meet-bob

They started with "well north" of 35% support for the vote and ended up with 33%-- a poor run campaign will result in poor performance; so JBPA is currently dead, its time to move on and put our differences aside, especially emotions...

...now its time to come together and work towards our common goal in making this place a better one for all...

 

[FADEC]

BoB

http://www.traileraddict.com/clip/monsters-vs-aliens/meet-bob

They started with "well north" of 35% support for the vote and ended up with 33%-- a poor run campaign will result in poor performance; so JBPA is currently dead, its time to move on and put our differences aside, especially emotions...

...now its time to come together and work towards our common goal in making this place a better one for all...

300 days and counting before I vote for ALPA.

 

[shadesofBS]

BoB

http://www.traileraddict.com/clip/monsters-vs-aliens/meet-bob

They started with "well north" of 35% support for the vote and ended up with 33%-- a poor run campaign will result in poor performance; so JBPA is currently dead, its time to move on and put our differences aside, especially emotions...

...now its time to come together and work towards our common goal in making this place a better one for all...

Negative.

The campaign was just fine. Very factual and honest. What it lacked was the LIES that the BoBs were more than willing to serve up.

We got an important lesson about trust and credibility. The BoBs and Forest Hills lost all credibility and Mike and the JBPA retained their's.

How we move on from this, is to educate each pilot who reaches his limit that this is what you can expect from Jetblue and the BoBs in the future.

How we move on from this is to ensure that none of those fools ends up in a leadership position.

How we move on from this is to up the ante and bring in the big guns.

I say "autopilot #1 on" - bring in ALPA and let's start cleaning up the mess that the PVC and the BoBs have left for us.

 

[Dizel8]

...now its time to come together and work towards our common goal in making this place a better one for all...

Just a darn shame management isn't interested in that!

 

[BeachBummer]

Negative.

The campaign was just fine. Very factual and honest. What it lacked was the LIES that the BoBs were more than willing to serve up.

We got an important lesson about trust and credibility. The BoBs and Forest Hills lost all credibility and Mike and the JBPA retained their's.

How we move on from this, is to educate each pilot who reaches his limit that this is what you can expect from Jetblue and the BoBs in the future.

How we move on from this is to ensure that none of those fools ends up in a leadership position.

How we move on from this is to up the ante and bring in the big guns.

I say "autopilot #1 on" - bring in ALPA and let's start cleaning up the mess that the PVC and the BoBs have left for us.

The campaign was a bust... there was no informational push, there were no bullet points and the official rush was only about 30 days. (Less than a month before the nmb filing one of the head organizers took a leave of absence from the company!) All the information was put on a website that jbpa hoped people would take the time to look at, and even that info was difficult to decifer. JBPA failed due to lack of planning, and unity. Forget the BOB's and theF&H crap and all the people on the far left. Start getting the message out. Real information that is factual and legitimate. Get everyone on the same page. Live and learn and move on, but if you think that the previous campaign was a success, than we are doomed to fail again.

The information wasn't out there for the masses and thats why it failed.

Not trying to take anything away from Sorbie or Evans, but you have to call it how ya see it. Thanks for the continuing work that you two are doing for us.

 

[shadesofBS]

The campaign was a bust... there was no informational push, there were no bullet points and the official rush was only about 30 days. (Less than a month before the nmb filing one of the head organizers took a leave of absence from the company!) All the information was put on a website that jbpa hoped people would take the time to look at, and even that info was difficult to decifer. JBPA failed due to lack of planning, and unity. Forget the BOB's and theF&H crap and all the people on the far left. Start getting the message out. Real information that is factual and legitimate. Get everyone on the same page. Live and learn and move on, but if you think that the previous campaign was a success, than we are doomed to fail again.

The information wasn't out there for the masses and thats why it failed.

Not trying to take anything away from Sorbie or Evans, but you have to call it how ya see it. Thanks for the continuing work that you two are doing for us.

Never forget the BoBs. They need a chapter in union handbooks everywhere.

Agreed though about the next campaign.

It should be nasty and aggressive just like the counter-campaign.

 

[pilotyip]

Union Brotherhood

Looking out for the brotherhood part II. While UAW members face pay cuts, job loss, benefit cuts and a reduction in their overall ranks of more than 8%, the UAW Presdent gets a rasie. Broad of Directors thought he was doing a good job, after all he endorsed BO, and deserved a raise. Sounds like management to me, those at the top get, those at the bottom pay dues.

 

[linepilot]

Go peddle your anti-labor drivel somewhere else. Nobody is buying it anymore.
It's time to get out the pitchforks and take it back.

 

[pilotyip]

approval?

Go peddle your anti-labor drivel somewhere else. Nobody is buying it anymore.
It's time to get out the pitchforks and take it back.

Does That mean you approve of hte UAW's actions?

 

[linepilot]

I agree with securing some yin to the executive yang.

You're not going to do that on your own. They'll show you the door and tell you that they pay enough to "attract and retain" good people. Are you one of "the people" that don't need benefits anymore?

You would give executives the keys to the store. People like you are always at the ready when a company fails (as they do) to blame labor and the unions they support. Why? I have no idea. Maybe you like being cheated. Or maybe you like cheating labor as the case may be.

There's a good reason the NLRA came about and a good reason why labor unions have so much influence in Washington. It's because executives CAN'T do the right thing and they never will. They will NEVER just say, "hey let's give these folks some good insurance no matter the cost" but they will always come up with reasons to give themselves bonuses and housing allowances and billions in stock options.

That pisses people off and they organize. Always have, always will.

Non-union labor is just a race to give up whatever they tell you they can't afford and after you give it all away - they still go out of business.

It's spineless - and when the executives and the investors have cashed out, what do you have?

 

[pilotyip]

There has to be a balance

I agree with securing some yin to the executive yang.

You're not going to do that on your own. They'll show you the door and tell you that they pay enough to "attract and retain" good people. Are you one of "the people" that don't need benefits anymore?

You would give executives the keys to the store. People like you are always at the ready when a company fails (as they do) to blame labor and the unions they support. Why? I have no idea. Maybe you like being cheated. Or maybe you like cheating labor as the case may be.

There's a good reason the NLRA came about and a good reason why labor unions have so much influence in Washington. It's because executives CAN'T do the right thing and they never will. They will NEVER just say, "hey let's give these folks some good insurance no matter the cost" but they will always come up with reasons to give themselves bonuses and housing allowances and billions in stock options.

That pisses people off and they organize. Always have, always will.

Non-union labor is just a race to give up whatever they tell you they can't afford and after you give it all away - they still go out of business.

It's spineless - and when the executives and the investors have cashed out, what do you have?

Here is what happens when management gives the unions everything they want to avoid a strike. Over the last 30 years it has eliminated 70% of the UAW jobs, gave great raise to non-union companies, and now it is concession time. UAW membership is down from 790K in 1979 to around 300K today. Part of GM’s problems today in the $103,000,000,000 (103B) spent on retiree healthcare benefits over the last 15 years. Management knew they could not pay for it, but elected to give in order to maintain peace. Now the Airlines could follow the same path as the UAW and it would be great for 30% of those who still had jobs. This is also great for the non-ALPA airlines that would fly all the passengers when the ALPA pilots were on strike.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I noticed that Linepilot chose not to comment on the current best practices of the UAW Executive Officers.

 

[linepilot]

Do you two clean lavs too? I mean, in the name of good ol' American competitiveness.

Bottom line:

No union = management runs you over. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

You two can maintain your esoteric beliefs about free markets and capitalism or whatever but I have a finite bracket of time in which to have a career, fund my retirement, and send my kids to college. It is us against the business school boys and they DO NOT reward you for being a non-union property. On the contrary, they will take your acquiescence as a green light to seek more efficiencies in the name of competitiveness. Of course it won't stop THEM from becoming fabulously wealthy - whether THEY perform or not.

While guys like you are racing eachother to the bottom, thank goodness the majority of professional pilots are standing up for professional pay and benefits.

Thank goodness we have pilots like Sorbie and Evans or we could only rise to whatever level guys like you came up with.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Do you two clean lavs too? I mean, in the name of good ol' American competitiveness.

At one job, I did. I guess I'm not a Prima Donna. What was your point?

Bottom line:

No union = management runs you over. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

ALPA didn't stop Management when they came looking for paycuts...ALPA must have had their back turned when Management put the bus in reverse and backed over the pilots again.

You two can maintain your esoteric beliefs about free markets and capitalism or whatever but I have a finite bracket of time in which to have a career, fund my retirement, and send my kids to college. It is us against the business school boys and they DO NOT reward you for being a non-union property. On the contrary, they will take your acquiescence as a green light to seek more efficiencies in the name of competitiveness. Of course it won't stop THEM from becoming fabulously wealthy - whether THEY perform or not.

While guys like you are racing eachother to the bottom, thank goodness the majority of professional pilots are standing up for professional pay and benefits.

Thank goodness we have pilots like Sorbie and Evans or we could only rise to whatever level guys like you came up with.

Reread my first post big guy, I'm for Unions...but not ALPA and the Teamsters. What have you been smoking to come out and say, "...thank goodness the majority of professional pilots are standing up for professional pay and benefits..."

WTF?!? WHAT RETIREMENTS??? WHAT BENEFITS???

They have been all but gutted...and where the F*** was the Big Union??? Living to Fight Another Day...

Your line about management makes me laugh. "Of course it won't stop THEM from becoming fabulously wealthy - whether THEY perform or not."

Sounds like the ALPA Executive Officers...maybe they aren't "Fabulously Wealthy" But they sure as sh*t aren't living the lifestyle of their average member!

I am all for Unions...but make them in-house, please.