East vs West, The Saga Continues

[Lampshade]

Yup, believe I posted that a few months ago. I read it. And as I say, it depends on the intent and the negotiating notes, which neither I nor you know what they say.
1. It says to Freeze the current rates (LOA 84 rates I believe) effective 5/04 to 12/10.

No it says rates specified in SECTION 3

2. Reduce these rates by 18%.

Correct

Ok.. So at 12/10, these rates would revert to unfrozen....right??? Yup, sounds like it. Now you have to goto LOA 84 to find out what the increases were supposed to be.

Hold on partner. Read this " The rates of pay specified in Section 3 of the Agreement (contract 98), as modified by the Restructuring Agreement (LOA 84), will be revised as follows (LOA 93)" The pay rates of LOA 84 just got swallowed by LOA 93.

3. Next step is, would those increases be from the LOA 84 rates or the LOA 93 rates? Company will say 93, Usapa 84. It gets grieved, it goes to arbitration, etc etc.

Good Luck

The increases from the LOA 84 are year specific

Yes they are and it's not 2007 or 2008 so you missed that didn't you. You also forgot the reduction in those payrates for 2005 that you didn't take.
2005 -5%
2006 0%
2007 2%
2008 2%
So with your logic you owe the company 1% LOL

But within those negotiating notes, one has to wonder if it says in there. Giving temporary relief for pay, freeze the rates and cut by 18% until '10, then rates are lifted.

Either way, if it's simply ther percentage increases which are unfrozen, I find it hard to follow your logic that a capt at TOS would not get an increase if there are 3% yearly increases in there??? TOS would move 3% every year, compounded....

Where is the TOS increases addressed?

 

[Crzipilot]

Its fine, I have nothing but time.... and you dont need to bow down, just raise the gear and talk on the radios when we tell you too!

Yup, got lotsa time myself. To ride LOA 93 until upgrade time... Not a problem for me. Your paltry 7.00/hr increase in pay is not worth my seniority number.

 

[Crzipilot]

Ok, It looks like you got some tutoring on the usage of said mouse. But I guess you need tutoring on going through a contract, and it's revisions to follow the thread of where it began and where it ends.

From my quick glance understanding, I guess we have to go back to Actual book rates. Which is the '98 contract, which also includes parity reviews and all sorts of mumbo jumbo. Alas all of that got thrown out the window, via the Restructering agreemeint of 7/02? That simply states:

The hourly pay rates contained in Section 3 of the Agreement will be revised as follows:
• The hourly pay rates in effect on June 30, 2002 will be known as the Book Rates. The actual rates will each be reduced on the Effective Date to the rates that were in effect on April 30, 2001. The parity review scheduled for May 1, 2003, and Letter of Agreement 47, as amended, will be canceled.
• Eliminate the LOA #61 1% lump sum increase scheduled for 2003.
• Hourly pay rates will be increased by a compounded 1% effective on May 1, 2003, May 1, 2004, May 1, 2005, and May 1, 2006, and further increased by a compounded 2% effective on May 1, 2007 and May 1, 2008, and 3% on May 1 of the succeeding status quo period (i.e., the period past the Agreement amendable date).


So that seemed to make everyone happy, unfortunately it only lasted a few months. then LOA 84 came around.....and it states....

HOURLY RATES OF PAY: The actual hourly rates of pay to be paid to all pilots under the Agreement will in each year be less than or greater than the actual hourly rates of pay specified under the restructuring Agreement (i.e., the actual hourly rates as increased each May 1) by the following percentage amounts. These percentages are not cumulative but are in each instance an adjustment of the hourly rate of pay that would otherwise have been paid under the Restructuring Agreement in the applicable pay period. Hence, in each year there will be two actual hourly rates of pay applicable to each position: the rate in effect from January 1 through April 30 and the rate in effect from May 1 through December 31.

2003 (8% reduction)
2004 (6.5% reduction)
2005 (5.0% reduction)
2006 (0) (This point would be back to book rates of Restructuring agreement.)
2007 2.0% INCREASE
2008 2.0% INCREASE
2009 and beyond As Per Restructering Agreement (which is a 3% increase each year COMPOUNDED)

So that satisfied people for awhile....then came LOA 93 and what you pasted previously:


Revisions to Hourly
Pay Rates:
The rates of pay specified in Section 3 of the Agreement, as modified by the Restructuring Agreement, will be revised as follows:
1. Freeze current rates effective 5/01/04 through 12/31/09.
2. Reduce rates as frozen by 18%.



So again. When 12/31/09 comes around. The pay rates are no longer FROZEN. The Restructuring Agreement takes precedance. The question IS, do the pay rates start at the LOA 93 calculated rates, or do they start at the LOA 84 rates, (which LOA 84 rates would be restructering agreement rates with two 2% increases and one 3% increase, if we are talking year 2010.)

Where is TOS addressed??? Uhmmm in the 2 and 3% yearly increases, DUH. And Uhmmm...in your previous posting you were saying with MY stupid logic we owe the Company 1%??? Uhmm...DUH again, if YOU WOULD READ after you CLICKED your MOUSE. You would notice that in LOA 84, the decrease percentages are NOT CUMULATIVE, but actually reacalculated each year for a new pay rate. Soo it in essence was 3 years of pay cuts, followed by a flat year, followed by pay raises. So I guess by your logic, you can't read.

AS I previously said. I DON"T KNOW YOU DON"T KNOW. What we do know, is something happens.


Cliff notes:

There is actually 3 documents you must cipher through to figure out what happens to section 3 pay rates. Net Net, something happens (maybe nothing) 01/01/10. We know One Westie has reading comprehension problems, as well as a little trouble following the intricites of contract flow. And One Eastie that has spelling, grammar, and attitude problems....

Oh and if you were wondering.
before the 18% cut from LOA 93:

Airbus/737 757 A330

12th year

Capt: 152.29 175.64 194.59

F/O: 105.01 119.96 132.90


A.West rates

15 years

Capt: 141.85 141.85 N/A

F/O: 93.61 93.61 N/A



*** N/A don't have the side letter on the West side agreement for the 330, But I think they agreed to hard rates based on our loa 93 rates.

Wouldn't that be funny if rates fall back to pre 93 rates for East and West is stuck with loa 93 330 rates, and in effect whipsaw the east side....interesting. Anyone have details on that letter???

 

[Crzipilot]

Ooops, Hadn't checked my mailbox for domicile updates. here's the latest......

We have been getting many questions regarding the expiration dates that are clearly stated in LOA 93. The following language exists as Revisions to Hourly Pay Rates in LOA 93:

The rates of pay specified in Section 3 of the Agreement, as modified by the Restructuring Agreement, will be revised as follows:

1. Freeze current rates effective 5/01/04 through 12/31/09.
2. Reduce rates as frozen by 18%.
3. Reduce International pay override, as stated in Section 3(F) and Section 18(C), by 18% for transoceanic trips; eliminate international override for non-transoceanic trips.
4. Pay all flying at day rate.

The language in LOA 93 regarding pay rates and pay freezes expires on December 31, 2009. When the pay freeze expires on 12/31/09, we don’t just return back to the 18% reduction, but rather we return to the compensation section of LOA 84. The salient point here is that LOA 84 established pay rates twice each year with the last rate adjustment coming on May 1, 2009. It's that May 2009 rate that would be in effect on Dec. 31, 2009, when the LOA 93 "freeze/18% reduced rates" end. Doing the math on these numbers produces the following estimated pay schedules for January 2010 as per the restructuring agreement:


January 1, 2010 pay rates per Restructuring Agreement: 12th year Captain Rate 12th year F/O rate

A330-------$222.26
​

A330------$152.22
​

Group 1----$201.35
​

Group 1---$137.52
​

Group 2----$174.85
​

Group 2---$119.42
​

 

[johnnyb]

January 1, 2010 pay rates per Restructuring Agreement: 12th year Captain Rate 12th year F/O rate

A330-------$222.26
​

A330------$152.22
​

Group 1----$201.35
​

Group 1---$137.52
​

Group 2----$174.85
​

Group 2---$119.42
​

Say hello to permanent separate ops.

 

[Crzipilot]

Eeehhhh......Problem with that, the company still has a whipsaw, just reversed. Gotta find a way to settle all this and take that out of the companies hand. As well as get our flying (all the jet flying) back onto US Senioirty list.

anyways, pipe dreams....

And NO the Nic is the answer...

 

[ALGFLYR]

The language in LOA 93 regarding pay rates and pay freezes expires on December 31, 2009. When the pay freeze expires on 12/31/09, we don’t just return back to the 18% reduction, but rather we return to the compensation section of LOA 84. The salient point here is that LOA 84 established pay rates twice each year with the last rate adjustment coming on May 1, 2009. It's that May 2009 rate that would be in effect on Dec. 31, 2009, when the LOA 93 "freeze/18% reduced rates" end. Doing the math on these numbers produces the following estimated pay schedules for January 2010 as per the restructuring agreement:



January 1, 2010 pay rates per Restructuring Agreement: 12th year Captain Rate 12th year F/O rate

A330-------$222.26​

A330------$152.22​

Group 1----$201.35​

Group 1---$137.52​

Group 2----$174.85​

Group 2---$119.42​

Well my bet is that if this truly happens, the West will start screaming for PARITY!!! Hummm.....

 

[Crzipilot]

I think I know my VOTE on that one....HA

 

[Carl S.]

I wish the East pilots these rate if they can get them! But if you truly believe that you can get them, I have a slightly used A320 in Jersey City with low miles for you. How's the gunslinger's arbitration going, I heard the F/O was practically raped on the stand!

 

[Sandhawk]

I wish the East pilots these rate if they can get them! But if you truly believe that you can get them, I have a slightly used A320 in Jersey City with low miles for you. How's the gunslinger's arbitration going, I heard the F/O was practically raped on the stand!

Whatever happened to the Bradley Baja Boys ???

 

[Crzipilot]

Yup, He was raped on the stand. Basically the company held every capt. hostage that this witness had flown with. In conference, instead of using this f/o's testimony, the grievant and the witness decided to pull his testimony, which MIGHT have helped the grievant, in order to keep any other captains which this individual had flown with, out of trouble. Now if you find glee in that, and the implications which this shows. You are truely one sick person, I hope you never do anything wrong and end up in such proceedings and have the company pull this crap with you.

good luck

 

[Carl S.]

I hope I never have USAPA show up and try to represent me. If past practice is an indication of future performance, I'll go solo or remain silent till the USAPA idiots leave!

 

[Jar Jar]

Eeehhhh......Problem with that, the company still has a whipsaw, just reversed. Gotta find a way to settle all this and take that out of the companies hand. As well as get our flying (all the jet flying) back onto US Senioirty list.

anyways, pipe dreams....

And NO the Nic is the answer...

PDT demands DOH

 

[Fast43]

Yup, He was raped on the stand. Basically the company held every capt. hostage that this witness had flown with. In conference, instead of using this f/o's testimony, the grievant and the witness decided to pull his testimony, which MIGHT have helped the grievant, in order to keep any other captains which this individual had flown with, out of trouble. Now if you find glee in that, and the implications which this shows. You are truely one sick person, I hope you never do anything wrong and end up in such proceedings and have the company pull this crap with you.

good luck

Pull what crap?

The usapa geniuses use a pilot as an "Expert Witness" who is not even a FFDO. He says, in a round about way. Hey I have flown with over 20 of them and most of them handle their guns with something other than the correct procedure. So because of that you shouldn't fire this guy, he is no different. Brilliant !!!!

Offered the chance to withdraw the testimony, thereby keeping this on the down low. They make the correct choice. That is until they put out a Grievance update stating all this laced with indignation. So if this pilots termination is upheld for not using the correct procedure. Would you want to be an FFDO that flew with this Expert Witness ?????? Do you know who does and doesn't read those updates ?????

You are very correct in that hopefully nobody else ends up in this type of proceeding with usapa defending you.

How can you defend this for one second......

 

[regionaltard]

The usapa geniuses use a pilot as an "Expert Witness" who is not even a FFDO. He says, in a round about way. Hey I have flown with over 20 of them and most of them handle their guns with something other than the correct procedure. So because of that you shouldn't fire this guy, he is no different. Brilliant !!!!

"It's so wrong, it must be right!" Vintage USAPA.