DAL junior Pilots sold down the river by NEW MEC

[Papa Woody]

Same Sh!t, different Sh!tbags....

I'm almost physically sick.

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

 

[lookin4better]

more 76 seat RJ's not flown by mainline pilots = barf

 

[ACL65PILOT]

yep, the question is what are WE going to do to change it. It is possible.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

yes. What are we willing to do to make it happen...?

 

[slapstick]

In seemingly unrelated news, the FAs have decided that they will merge their lists by DOH.

This was published in the Delta Daily Dribble. I'm surprised more wasn't made of it.

Nu

I heard our FA's new seniority list puts all of them within a half percent of their former relative seniority.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

The story I was told was that the MEC Chair is the "Grievant" in all greivances. Therefore they are settled to his satisfaction.

In related news ...

Delta CEO gives bleak assessment of demand
Delta Air Lines chief gives bleak assessment of air travel demand
Harry R. Weber, AP Airlines Writer
Thursday February 12, 2009, 6:50 pm EST
Yahoo! Buzz Print Relatedelta Air Lines Inc.
ATLANTA (AP) -- The chief executive officer of Delta Air Lines Inc. gave a bleak assessment Thursday of demand for air travel amid the enormous financial strain that many Americans have been under in recent months.

In a recorded message to employees, CEO Richard Anderson did not specifically say the world's biggest carrier plans to cut more jobs or capacity than previously announced, though he did suggest the erosion in demand that the airline has seen has been very difficult.

"Passengers, our customers, are not buying tickets at rates they were buying tickets a year ago," Anderson said. "Obviously, we wish we didn't have to decrease our capacity, but we cannot fly our airplanes around at low load factors."

Atlanta-based Delta has previously said it expected about 2,000 employees to accept the company's latest round of severance offers that were made due to its plans to reduce systemwide capacity in 2009 by 6 percent to 8 percent. The window for employees to accept the severance offers closed at midnight Wednesday.

Anderson did not say in his message late Thursday how many employees accepted the offers or how many jobs the company would ultimately cut.

He did say that Delta would work through the numbers and look at who has chosen to take the packages and align that with the airline's needs.

Anderson said Delta needs to right-size the airline based on customer demand.

"The economy is very difficult," Anderson said. "It seems every day we read about companies announcing layoffs by the thousands."

He said customers are tightening their belts, not spending as much on vacations. As a result, Anderson said Delta will need to react quickly.

"A strong, durable airline is truly the only job security for all of us," Anderson said.

The voluntary severance payout offers were made to a majority of the 75,000 employees at Delta and Northwest's mainline operations.

The program is similar to one earlier in 2008 that Delta used to trim about 4,000 jobs. Northwest Airlines previously trimmed jobs of its own before being acquired by Delta on Oct. 29.

Delta and Northwest's mainline operations include 75,000 employees. The entire company, including regional subsidiaries Comair, Mesaba and Compass, has about 85,000 employees. The 12,000 pilots of Delta and Northwest, as well as certain management and administrative employees, are not eligible for the voluntary severance programs.

EmailIM Bookmarkdel

Didn't someone say on here that pilots were NOT given the voluntary leave offers everyone else was????

WHY NOT? Wouldn't it be cheaper to keep newer guys on the payroll, oust the senior daddies and prevent furloughs of your guys???

Is this YET another Moak screwjob? Surely you ave alternatives other than a guy who is buddy buddy with the CEOs...how much "comp" are they giving him anyway? Disclosure of accounts anyone? Just a thought..certainly APPEARS suspicious

 

[Voice Of Reason]

so yesterday?

Compare this from two WEEKS ago (below) to above article from today:
------------
Delta posts $1.4 billion loss, expects 2009 profit

By LIZ FEDOR, Star Tribune
January 27, 2009
Delta Air Lines, which reported a fourth-quarter loss of $1.4 billion on Tuesday, expects to make money in 2009 despite a global economic recession that has kept many would-be travelers grounded.
Delta CEO Richard Anderson said that the carrier will be "solidly profitable" this year because of lower fuel costs, reductions in Delta's flying operations and about $500 million in financial benefits from the merger with Northwest Airlines.
The year won't start off well though: The carrier said it will have a "sizable loss" in the first quarter, when demand historically slackens.
Delta shares plunged 20 percent Tuesday, closing at $7.93.
Despite oil prices remaining low, Delta will have higher fuel costs at the start of this year because of hedges put in place when fuel prices skyrocketed last year. In retrospect, Anderson said, the hedging became "an expensive insurance policy."
After oil hit $147 a barrel last July, Anderson said, "no one could have predicted that oil would fall so precipitously." Crude oil settled at $41.58 a barrel on Tuesday on the New York Mercantile Exchange.
For 2009, the Atlanta-based airline is sticking to its December projection that it will reduce domestic capacity by 8 to 10 percent and trim international operations by 3 to 5 percent.
"We're seeing softness throughout the domestic economy" in the form of fewer bookings, said Ed Bastian, Delta's president and CEO of Delta's Northwest subsidiary. Among the combined carrier's seven hubs, Bastian said that Delta is seeing the greatest decreases in Detroit and Cincinnati. The Minneapolis-St. Paul hub is "staying relatively healthy," he said.

February and March bookings are down, and the London-New York JFK route has been hit particularly hard. Consumers, wary about spending, often are booking their trips nearer to departure. Delta executive Glen Hauenstein, who oversees ticket pricing and flight scheduling, said people are "hesitant to make investments in their future, whether or not they're looking at stock portfolios, washers and dryers or airline tickets."
Delta, which acquired Northwest at the end of October, released quarterly results that included Northwest's financial performance. Based on those combined figures, operating revenue was $7.8 billion, or flat, on a base of flight operations that were 4 percent smaller.
Operating expenses increased 23 percent to $9.5 billion. The lion's share of Delta's quarterly loss was associated with a noncash charge for employee stock awards that amounted to more than $900 million. Delta also recorded a $91 million loss on out-of-period fuel hedges.
Bill Hochmuth, a senior research analyst at Thrivent Investment Management in Minneapolis, said he was "a little surprised" by Delta's stock slide Tuesday. Hochmuth, who deals with fixed-income investments, said that Wall Street investors may have viewed Delta's revenue picture as weaker than they expected. Unit revenue is expected to be down 4 percent this year.
But Delta anticipates a 6 to 8 percent full-year operating profit margin.
Steve Loucks of Eden Prairie-based Travel Leaders, which has about 500 travel agencies across the United States, said his company had a 20 percent decline in airline bookings during the fourth quarter.
Loucks anticipates another tough year in 2009, but he said there's been one bright spot:
"Because of the extreme weather we've had, we've seen an uptick in business during the last month." The brutal cold in many regions of the United States motivated many consumers to take advantage of discounts being offered by airlines, hotels and other travel-related companies, Loucks said.
He expects the discounting to continue to encourage jittery consumers who still have jobs to spend money on travel. Business travelers also are taking advantage of deals and booking well in advance to get cheaper air fares.
"It is serving as a stimulus to our travel industry," Loucks said. "We aren't going to get a government bailout. It's welcome when suppliers are willing to price their services at an attractive price."

Liz Fedor • 612-673-7709


© 2009 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.
-----------------------

 

[Dan Roman]

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

What's with you guys who "throw up in your mouths a little" every time you hear something you don't like?

 

[FDJ2]

Spare me the DMC - at least we stood our ground and didn't just role over and play dead.

No, you were slaughtered by the arbitrators who threw out every one of your proposals and methodologies. But you did stand your ground.


We still did way better than what you had intended for us in the opener.

Wow, congratulations, you did better than an arbitration opener. Good on you.

Don't take it personally though, you weren't the first group to be confident in an arbitration position and end up having it rejected.

 

[FDJ2]

You were confident in your posistion only after you cut and run in the spring. You were not so confident then and that cost us, all of us money and a better contract. Your fear of arbitration then led to loa19, which was a tradeoff btw King Moak and RA for a less costly contract but with his assurance that the company would not accept any sli(final say) that would put the y'all at an disadvantage due to the demographics. This is the only reason y'all all of a sudden embraced arbitration, albeit with a worse contract but insurance on seniority.

Thanks for the good laugh. :laugh:

 

[slinky]

My suggestion

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Fly4hire]

Wow, congratulations, you did better than an arbitration opener. Good on you.

Don't take it personally though, you weren't the first group to be confident in an arbitration position and end up having it rejected.

And who maintained their opener was the middle of the road, compromise, final best offer? I would hardly say the arbitrators threw out every NWA position, and most fN pilots ended up ~50% better on SLI vs. DAL between the 2 lists. Too bad they didn't buy your fence everything position either...thats all history at this point and we are all going to live with it.

Your chest puffing on how well you did on the arbitration directly contradicts your argument of why we shouldn't have arbitrated on the grievance.

You said yourself it could have been handled better.
Next time let's hope it is, by including the Reps, and there are no more fuzzy lines in the sand. This was a deliberate test by management, and they got exactly what they wanted and we got a consolation prize.

I hope y'all wake up and realize RA and management are not on board with the pilots. The worst concessions and mistakes in ALPA history have been made when MEC Reps and Officers let themselves get taken in that they and management are on the same team. The success of the corporation is not the same thing as the prospering of the pilot group.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Laugh all you want. FACT. Since that was one of your talking points, is that without arbitration I would have lost 4% with dalpas proposal and actually gained 2% and doh would have gained me 4%. I was one of the lucky ones. Others did much worse with only a few doing better. All did better than dalpas proposal, so I would not be puffing your chest out about how poorly we did in arbitration.

Thanks for the good laugh. :laugh:

 

[michael707767]

Wow, congratulations, you did better than an arbitration opener. Good on you.

Don't take it personally though, you weren't the first group to be confident in an arbitration position and end up having it rejected.

I think the NWA pilots did much better than the DAL pilots in the award. I think the award was a very middle of the road position between the two openers. The DAL merger committer tried to take the high road, starting with an opener close to a final position and it didn't work.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I think the NWA pilots did much better than the DAL pilots in the award. I think the award was a very middle of the road position between the two openers. The DAL merger committer tried to take the high road, starting with an opener close to a final position and it didn't work.

What a bunch of dolts...typical. Yeah, it's going to be really effective teamwork against your management and their lackey/double agent Moak to start up that crap again. If that's the case you guys have NO hope whatsoever. Ford & Harrison's dream come true. Yeah focus on THAT. :smash:

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I think the NWA pilots did much better than the DAL pilots in the award. I would not say be did better than y'all, just better than y'alls heinous proposal. I think the award was a very middle of the road position between the two openers. I will agree to that for certain segmentst of our list. The DAL merger committer tried to take the high road, starting with an opener close to a final position and it didn't work. I would not go that far. Again, if y'all did not take the high road. You took a posistion that disadvantaged ALL NWA pilots and ended up with one that just came closer to fair.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

What a bunch of dolts...typical. Yeah, it's going to be really effective teamwork against your management and their lackey/double agent Moak to start up that crap again. If that's the case you guys have NO hope whatsoever. Ford & Harrison's dream come true. Yeah focus on THAT. :smash:

I think the NWA pilots did much better than the DAL pilots in the award. I would not say be did better than y'all, just better than y'alls heinous proposal. I think the award was a very middle of the road position between the two openers. I will agree to that for certain segmentst of our list. The DAL merger committer tried to take the high road, starting with an opener close to a final position and it didn't work. I would not go that far. Again, if y'all did not take the high road. You took a posistion that disadvantaged ALL NWA pilots and ended up with one that just came closer to fair.

Is it any WONDER this profession is in a downward spiral with these illiterates that obsess over the wrong things????:angryfire
SO f-ing stupid!

 

[Whine Lover]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=120903

Pretty much sums it up.

YKMKR

 

[JohnDoe]

Well, this thread has come to an end with the village idiots re-hashing the tired old seniority list arguements.

Meanwhile, things like scope relief and retired pilots with full pensions flying part-time will pass........

 

[CopilotDoug]

Hockeypilot:

After you decertify - what next?

A weak in house union? No union? Teamsters, who destroyed scope with their support for the GoJets fiasco?

I completely understand your frustration, but we need an end game pretty well figured out before we harm our bargaining Rep. In a decade, I have not been able to figure out a better end game than to try to fix the union we have. Go to your LEC meeting, run against your Reps, try to turn the political tide... etc.

FIN, of your current elected Reps, which ones were elected because their goal was to keep the status quo?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Is it any WONDER this profession is in a downward spiral with these illiterates that obsess over the wrong things????:angryfire
SO f-ing stupid!

Speaking of stupid, voice of whining, shouldn't you be over at the frac boards where you belong trying to piss off the net jets guys and worrying about your own house at flops?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Here is one for ya.

I have been getting a few indications that RJDC is seeing LOA 2006-10 as an infraction on its agreement with ALPA. RJDC's beef is that this LOA pertained to only its original signatory's. (NWA-DAL-CPA and Mesaba) Fact is that due to the fact that this LOA now applies to all DCI carrier is very important to all Delta pilots. As we are shrinking we need to realize that this now affords our pilots the ability through our CBA to have rights at other carriers. It was not unintentional.
What we need to do is make sure that our MEC and CNC do not sign a MOA with the RJDC and company that it only includes these carriers. If they do that it is only a further erosion of our CBA rites. I urge all of you to contract our representation and tell them what the importance of this NWA LOA 2006-10 is to all of us.

 

[Monster Buck]

I have read the company's position many times now to figure out why our union felt that we couldn't have done better by pressing the point. I see how the company is spinning this and why the union thought the way they did. BUT IT IS A SCOPE RELIEF plain and simple. I talked with my rep and he was very adamant about me not using the words scope relief. Someone on here said we should be writing into our contract what IS ours and not what isn't. IE all ac above 76 seats is ours period. I wonder if it is not like that on purpose. Known by both Lee and the company. Reading over the scope in our contract I can see many of these arguments are going to rise up again in the future. We need some better lawyers to right this up than the ones that have aided in the past. Our scope is so full of arguable wording that I wonder if a slick management lawyer is writing it or someone with our best interest in mind.

We better lock down 77 seats and above right now or we are going to be in this mess arguing over the gap between the dc-9-30 and the emb175 for the next twenty years.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Part of what RJDC is looking at is scoping type of AC. That means that the CL-65 series will have the CRJ 1000. Make sure that our union folks do not sell this as better for us.
The same would hold true with the E-series.

 

[Fly4hire]

Here is one for ya.

I have been getting a few indications that RJDC is seeing LOA 2006-10 as an infraction on its agreement with ALPA. RJDC's beef is that this LOA pertained to only its original signatory's. (NWA-DAL-CPA and Mesaba) Fact is that due to the fact that this LOA now applies to all DCI carrier is very important to all Delta pilots.

Does it? I thought the LOA was still NWA/DAL/CPZ/XJ only and that we had no flow up/down with anyone else. Please refer me to any LOA or MOU that changes the scope (no pun intended) of LOA 2006-10.

I thought the beef was that RJDC wanted a flow for all DCI's? Additionally I don't think they'd have much luck Scoping all series of a type into their operations in contradiction of the mainlines 76 seat limit.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It is also in Section 1

 

[~~~^~~~]

FIN, of your current elected Reps, which ones were elected because their goal was to keep the status quo?

You are kind of twisting my post a little.

I responded to a decertification drive suggestion. I don't think a decertification drive benefits our membership. I just pointed out some of the alternatives to carpet bombing ALPA because our frustration over scope language.

Since you asked, I will say plainly that our Reps and our Contract Negotiating Committee fail to fully appreciate the perilous position our current contract language places us in and the light will come on as this language is tested.

Fundamentally, we are flawed when we start using scope as bargaining leverage. As we erode our flying our bargaining power is reduced. Most fail to see the negative trend line that is the direct result of this policy.

Secondly, our control mechanisms are weak and fail when put under stress. Examples include our recent settlement over 76 seat jet flying where a difference in opinions on what the definition of "is" is resulted in 29 additional large RJ's while our mainline fleet is shrinking. Mark my words, we will next be tested on NWA LOA's 2006-10 and 2006-14.

I expect we will fail to protect these contract provisions since there is a pervasive thought that using scope as bargaining capital increases pay. Rather than seeing outsourcing as a threat, some see it as an opportunity.

I like my Reps and hope they will listen to my concerns. I don't think replacing the status quo with a more radical version of the status quo will help us. Instead we need to approach these scope issues smarter and more objectively.

 

[Fly4hire]

It is also in Section 1

Just read the section - the LOA's do not include flow other than CPZ/XJ, but leave the framework open for reciprocal preferential hiring if other DCI carriers want to engage.

I'm guessing the RJDC scum want to sue for a seat at DAL - again. Wanna bet they don't want it to flow down hill either?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The worry amongst some if that the MEC will negotiate it away. There is the potential for that. It is not something that needs to be done ever. Especially during this time of economic meltdown.
Make sure that our MEC and CNC realize with out an iota of a doubt that These LOA's and Sction one are not for sale or to be used as negioation captial.
I firmily believe that with these preferential flows and hiring agreeemtns we could avoid a furlough. DAL will pay for you going out, at the new carrier and coming back. It is a lot of money for them to spend. Spending that money is a real deternet to a off the cuff furlough.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Speaking of stupid, voice of whining, shouldn't you be over at the frac boards where you belong trying to piss off the net jets guys and worrying about your own house at flops?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/search.php?searchid=2057268

Not one single post from this guy has been anything other than troll...How is he not banned???
Not ONE post.