Big Unions: Introduce an Act the Would Release Aviation from The Railway Labor Act

[Hamburger]

. Lose the protection that the RLA provides you and that would be the result. IMHO.

Got to say, that's the very first time I've heard of the RLA being in place for my protection.

That era is over.

Exactly.

 

[FDJ2]

Tacking on a condition that it was "inevitable" to twist the question is a move only a fool couldn't see through.

Only a fool couldn't see that the law was going to change, with or without ALPA.

ALPA did the right thing. They polled the membership and got direction on how to procede when the writing was clearly already on the wall with regards to the age 60 rule.

 

[ualdriver]

ALPA PAC took a lot of income from me with that move and they will never see another cent.

Must be nice to be a "single issue" pilot such as yourself. Good thing there's no more BIG political fights coming down the road, like foreign ownership or cabotage issues. I mean, Age 65 is an annoyance compared to an Indonesian pilot flying between LAX and ORD for 3rd world wages. But, you're right. Once the Age 65 fight was lost, why should we fight further?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Maybe I've missed a class in government, but I am wondering why gigantic unions like ALPA, with all their lobbyists, haven't done anything toward eliminating the Railway Labor Act from pertaining to aviation?

With ALL their lobbyist? How many do you think ALPA has? In addition, ALPA pilots think ALPA staffers are over paid... so its not like we are attracting the big K street talent....

That is one of the single biggest hindrances to this profession, (and now that out goverment is controlled by a union-approved and supported group), why has this not happened in ALL these years????

You state.... 'and now out govt...... why has this not happened is ALL these years...

Our 'here and now' gov't has been in office for a couple of weeks... not all these years... so how can we expect changes?

Why not lobby for the elimination of it and creation of a more applicable system (and more labor friendly) that does not exempt its workers from the basic privileges and work rules most other occupations are privy to.

You mean like a more labor friendly Europe.

Sorry, we Americans like our free enterprise... the RLA is designed to keep commerce going. The RLA is heavily favored to corporations.

In addition, the corporations have much more money that we do to spend on lobbyist. It is an up hill battle.

What really rubs, is pilots generate revenue for the company, the company in turns uses that revenue to hire lobbyist to work against us on CapHill.

The worst is pilots at Skywest and jetblue. See management there belong to the RAA and ATA, respectively. These are lobby groups. At least union pilots have a voice on CapHill. The OO and JB pilots make money for the company and then the company uses that money to lobby congress, with usually counter results.

At times, union and company work together.... at times they do not. I'd much rather be represented.

Why is it acceptable to not be paid during ALL hours of duty? (Note: per diem is not hourly pay, it is per diem). How is there not rioting in Washington over this insane travesty?

I'll address that in the end of this post...

THIS is the biggest issue you should be demanding that your unions immediately force their PAID LOBBYISTS (who no doubt have politicians in their pockets who can take it to the finish line) to aggressively pursue full time.

It is all coming together...

PASS IT ON and do NOT let it die.

...if everyone keeps this in the forefront and not hold an apathetic attitude this CAN be changed!

Well you just nailed it... apathy.

Why change the RLA when we have not fully explored the possibilities?

ALPA-PAC participation is at about 14%.
There is minimal participation at picketing events and demonstrations.

ALPA is a resource not a service.

Until there is a sea of uniformed pilots with hats on the Washington DC Mall, saying we are a force you must deal with, there will be no changes...

If you try and change the RLA it will be all about negotiation... corp America will want something in return. CorpAmerica already has the advantage, why ould they give that up....

We can be a force to reckon with... but we have to empower our leadership with numbers....

The ATA, managements version of ALPA, was formed in 1936 in part to counter ALPA's political effectiveness.

However, another force was given to the ALPA president....

Resignation letters. The ALPA President, Dave Behnke, a United Pilots, held in his hand the resignation letters of a pilot group he represented.


Anyone around here ready to give their MEC chairman a resignation letter to negotiate with?

See, ALPA pilots today think ALPA is more like a shop at the Mall next to The Sharper Image and Abercrombie And Fitch.... a service store where dues is more like cash and 100% guarantees. ALPA pilots want money in their accounts, not necessarily professional status. Oh they want the status if they can get it, but only if it is free....


In other words, they want the reward without the responsibility..........

 

[PCL_128]

The RLA isn't really a bad law when it's applied as it was originally intended. The problem comes in when an administration has no intention of following the intent of the law.

In my opinion, the way to fix the problem is not to get rid of the RLA, but to slightly amend it. Time limits should be considered that would limit the amount of time that can be spent in direct negotiations and mediation. After that time limit was reached without a deal, a release would be automatic.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

The RLA isn't really a bad law when it's applied as it was originally intended. The problem comes in when an administration has no intention of following the intent of the law.

In my opinion, the way to fix the problem is not to get rid of the RLA, but to slightly amend it. Time limits should be considered that would limit the amount of time that can be spent in direct negotiations and mediation. After that time limit was reached without a deal, a release would be automatic.

Bingo

 

[A-V-8]

Time limits should be considered that would limit the amount of time that can be spent in direct negotiations and mediation. After that time limit was reached without a deal, a release would be automatic.

Hilary Clinton introduced a bill that would do that. It was co sponsored but I can't remember by whom. I read about this in Airline Pilot mag. during the election. I searched for the bill and e-mailed her HQ asking but I couldn't find it. This could be major for us if it could get earmarked to something else.

 

[Hamburger]

Must be nice to be a "single issue" pilot such as yourself. Good thing there's no more BIG political fights coming down the road, like foreign ownership or cabotage issues. Once the Age 65 fight was lost, why should we fight further?

The "single issue" is the fact that they did the exact opposite of the Will of the Membership and actually supported the change. If we had actually voted for it, or at the very least not voted against it time and time again, I wouldn't have a problem.
Inevitable, my ass. The FAA Admistrator, President, and Congress that enacted it are all gone barely a year later. Age 65 was lost because they refused to fight. Big political fights are coming down the pipe and they've demonstrated that they are willing to take a dive. Cabotage is inevitable, it's what they do in Europe, Trater told me so, he's already forming a Blue Ribbon Panel.

 

[JohnQ]

The "single issue" is the fact that they did the exact opposite of the Will of the Membership and actually supported the change. If we had actually voted for it, or at the very least not voted against it time and time again, I wouldn't have a problem.
Inevitable, my ass. The FAA Admistrator, President, and Congress that enacted it are all gone barely a year later. Age 65 was lost because they refused to fight.

BS. Age 65 passed without ONE nay vote in Congress--including those representatives from the APA's own district. The APA proved to be the worthless ones in this issue--they put out "feel good" press releases opposing Age 65, knowing full well that there was a greater chance of a meteor crashing into AA's corporate offices than Age 65 not passing.

ALPA on the other hand actually acted like a grown up (yes, I know that is usually verboten on such esteemed sites such as FI.com) and realized that "change" was coming whether we wanted it or not. Due to ALPA's influence the Age 65 language was crafted to at least prevent thousands of recently retired 61-year-olds coming back to "their" left seats, making the new rule even more onerous than it already is.

I have never heard one guy from ALPA--local, MEC, or national--proclaim how happy and proud he was that Age 65 is now the law of the land. But opposing it without any other mentality than "no no no, nyah, nyah, nyah" would have been an exercise in absolute futility. I prefer my leadership to be a bit more responsible than that.

 

[AC560]

All releasing airlines from the RLA would do is introduce pilots to the piece of legislation that is Taft Hartley.

Bush and other Presidents never sent people back to work using the RLA they sent people back to work using Taft Hartley.

 

[Flopgut]

All releasing airlines from the RLA would do is introduce pilots to the piece of legislation that is Taft Hartley.

Bush and other Presidents never sent people back to work using the RLA they sent people back to work using Taft Hartley.

Can you elaborate?

 

[AC560]

Can you elaborate?

Taft Hartley allows the President to very easily get a court order to return strikers back to work. Bush used it on the PMA to return the ILWU back to work when they were locked out.

Removal of RLA would allow you to strike. Thirty seconds after you were on strike you would be ordered back to work and the government would decide what is a good contract for you and your airline.

 

[zonker]

Only a fool couldn't see that the law was going to change, with or without ALPA.

ALPA did the right thing. They polled the membership and got direction on how to procede when the writing was clearly already on the wall with regards to the age 60 rule.

This is complete baloney.

The rule change only became inevitable when opposition to the rule suddenly disappeared on Capitol Hill. It went from a non-starter to a law within weeks, which is light speed in Washington.

 

[Flopgut]

Taft Hartley allows the President to very easily get a court order to return strikers back to work. Bush used it on the PMA to return the ILWU back to work when they were locked out.

Removal of RLA would allow you to strike. Thirty seconds after you were on strike you would be ordered back to work and the government would decide what is a good contract for you and your airline.

K. How is it that this is not the case with Boeing machinists or auto workers? Is it not the NLRB? Would we not have rights under the NLRB as do other AFL-CIO unions?

 

[Flopgut]

Before seeking to opt out of the RLA, we should make the case that we deserve the positives first.

 

[AC560]

K. How is it that this is not the case with Boeing machinists or auto workers? Is it not the NLRB? Would we not have rights under the NLRB as do other AFL-CIO unions?

Auto workers and machinists going on strike do not cause a million grandmothers to email their Senator that they can't visit their grandchildren.

 

[Flopgut]

Auto workers and machinists going on strike do not cause a million grandmothers to email their Senator that they can't visit their grandchildren.

Ok. So it's political. Although it's a small amount, things have moved in our favor.

We shouldn't move away from the RLA. If we're to be liable for every negative the RLA hands us, we deserve no less than every benefit. I think we can get those grandmas on our side.

 

[PHXFLYR]

With ALL their lobbyist? How many do you think ALPA has? In addition, ALPA pilots think ALPA staffers are over paid... so its not like we are attracting the big K street talent....



You state.... 'and now out govt...... why has this not happened is ALL these years...

Our 'here and now' gov't has been in office for a couple of weeks... not all these years... so how can we expect changes?



You mean like a more labor friendly Europe.

Sorry, we Americans like our free enterprise... the RLA is designed to keep commerce going. The RLA is heavily favored to corporations.

In addition, the corporations have much more money that we do to spend on lobbyist. It is an up hill battle.

What really rubs, is pilots generate revenue for the company, the company in turns uses that revenue to hire lobbyist to work against us on CapHill.

The worst is pilots at Skywest and jetblue. See management there belong to the RAA and ATA, respectively. These are lobby groups. At least union pilots have a voice on CapHill. The OO and JB pilots make money for the company and then the company uses that money to lobby congress, with usually counter results.

At times, union and company work together.... at times they do not. I'd much rather be represented.



I'll address that in the end of this post...



It is all coming together...



Well you just nailed it... apathy.

Why change the RLA when we have not fully explored the possibilities?

ALPA-PAC participation is at about 14%.
There is minimal participation at picketing events and demonstrations.

ALPA is a resource not a service.

Until there is a sea of uniformed pilots with hats on the Washington DC Mall, saying we are a force you must deal with, there will be no changes...

If you try and change the RLA it will be all about negotiation... corp America will want something in return. CorpAmerica already has the advantage, why ould they give that up....

We can be a force to reckon with... but we have to empower our leadership with numbers....

The ATA, managements version of ALPA, was formed in 1936 in part to counter ALPA's political effectiveness.

However, another force was given to the ALPA president....

Resignation letters. The ALPA President, Dave Behnke, a United Pilots, held in his hand the resignation letters of a pilot group he represented.


Anyone around here ready to give their MEC chairman a resignation letter to negotiate with?

See, ALPA pilots today think ALPA is more like a shop at the Mall next to The Sharper Image and Abercrombie And Fitch.... a service store where dues is more like cash and 100% guarantees. ALPA pilots want money in their accounts, not necessarily professional status. Oh they want the status if they can get it, but only if it is free....


In other words, they want the reward without the responsibility..........

Good post,Rez. But Benkhe 's brandishing those resignation letters in managements face held alot more clout in 1936 than it would today because there just wasn't the same number of trained pilots available in the workplace as there are today.Therefore, he could get away with it. If all of us handed in our letters to our MEC Chairman (for those of us who still have an MEC Chairman at a legitmate union , I might add ..... ) and resigned en masse, I'm sorry to say we would be replaced for half the prevailing rate by pilots just trying to break into the industry thinking there getting a screaming deal while those of us already slugging it out in the trenches know better. In other words pilot supply is inversly proportional to pilot leverage. The greater the supply the less the leverage we have to achieve a contract or shut an airline down like Behnchke threatened to do in 1936.

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

I dont know what makes some of you think the Dems are so labor/union friendly. Because they say they are?
Who was in charge when China was given most favored trading status? Who was in charge when NAFTA was enacted? Which president ordered AA back to work when they were to go on strike?
I guess if you believe that the outsourcing of most the jobs (union jobs) in this county is labor friendly than your argument holds water.
I'm not saying by any stretch that the Republicans are any better, but to think the paid off dem is better than the paid off repub. is just delusional.

Clinton did. But that was because APA's president at was quoted as saying at a Wall Stree gathering in public that he didn't trust Clinton as far as he could throw him. Not very smart. This found its way back to the White House and Clinton bought down the hammer 3 mins after the strike. He could get away with it because APA wasn't affiliated with the AFL-CIO. Contrast that with the Northwest ALPA pilot strike at the same time. Clinton allowed that one to proceed. Ever stop to wonder why ? 2 words;AFL-CIO affiliation. One union had it ,the other didn't.And the one that didn't had there heads handed to them on a platter because they didn't have the political support in all levels of government to see their agenda through.


PHXFLYR

 

[ualdriver]

The "single issue" is the fact that they did the exact opposite of the Will of the Membership and actually supported the change. If we had actually voted for it, or at the very least not voted against it time and time again, I wouldn't have a problem.
Inevitable, my ass. The FAA Admistrator, President, and Congress that enacted it are all gone barely a year later. Age 65 was lost because they refused to fight. Big political fights are coming down the pipe and they've demonstrated that they are willing to take a dive. Cabotage is inevitable, it's what they do in Europe, Trater told me so, he's already forming a Blue Ribbon Panel.

After having talked to my MEC reps, my very knowledgeable MEC legislative reps, and learning of Prater's answers to my MEC's questions concerning the issue, I totally disagree with your assessment of how Age 65 came about and why ALPA took the position it did. Unless you have some factual information that refutes what I have posted numerous times concerning the Age 65 rule change, you won't change my mind. I'm not sure who you talked to or where you got the facts that allowed you to reach your conclusions, but I suspect I won't change your mind either concerning the age change either. I'll leave it at that.

Unfortunately, however, the conclusions you reached about how Age 65 came about is clouding your judgement about what we, as airline pilots, have coming down the pipe and what we can do about it. If we, collectively, do nothing, we're definitely screwed. ALPA is the only organization that I know of that is even trying to defend the profession, and doing nothing because I'm upset about one issuee, or two issues, or whatever, isn't an option in my opinion. I personally do not have the luxury of being an "one issue" or "two issue" pilot.