737 & "Marrying the Bugs"

[SuperFLUF]

I also put the bug one or two off, just to see if the anal captain can't stand it and has to make an adjustment. You are not going to "save the day" by having your bugs married up vs. being one or two degrees off. Like someone mentioned earlier, before you change your mode, you should know where your heading bug is and if it's not exactly where you want it, then in about half a second it can be. Also, when ATC says "right 10 degrees for traffic" I enjoy flying 11 or 12 degrees right if I feel like it.

I also enjoy calling for flaps 2.

Who's really more anal?

The guy who constantly fiddles with the heading bug?
Or the guy who screws with someone buy intentionally being imprecise cuz he's anal about pilots who are anal?

Yeah, you taught them a lesson allright.......

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Any of you homos touch my stuff, I'll kill ya!

ICrunk, I think you are a newby so..Do what your f##kin told or you will fly the radios for the rest of the trip and Rhino, you have been a copilot too long...Just marry the bugs....who cares....just so that it is in front of the airplane....It is what we do here....F##kin children

And Wilbur flew on his belly the first time. How do you think I can get the seat set to fly like that?

tico, I think I'll fly the book, and the book doesn't say anything about marrying the bugs.

If you can come up with something other than because that's how we did it on the -200 or the Coronado or the PBY, I'll listen. Otherwise, it's technique, and I'll choose my safe technique, you choose yours.

I'm not out to annoy the guy I'm flying with with some passive aggressive switchery, I just don't feel there's a need to guard the heading bug from getting off 2 freakin' degrees.

 

[jimcav]

And Wilbur flew on his belly the first time. How do you think I can get the seat set to fly like that?

tico, I think I'll fly the book, and the book doesn't say anything about marrying the bugs.

If you can come up with something other than because that's how we did it on the -200 or the Coronado or the PBY, I'll listen. Otherwise, it's technique, and I'll choose my safe technique, you choose yours.

I'm not out to annoy the guy I'm flying with with some passive aggressive switchery, I just don't feel there's a need to guard the heading bug from getting off 2 freakin' degrees.

Some captains just have wierd idiosyncracies. Part of being a good copilot is to just deal with it. Some day you will be the boss and get to set the tone.

 

[pipe]

you say tomAto, I say tomaahhto.

you say idiosyncrasy, I say obsessive compulsive overcontrolling pain in the a$$.

PIPE

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Some captains just have wierd idiosyncracies. Part of being a good copilot is to just deal with it. Some day you will be the boss and get to set the tone.

I fear this is becoming an FO vs CA thread. Not good. The point of the thread started as a technical question.

Remember, most FOs here where Captains elsewhere. And I suspect you were an FO at some point, as well.

That said, defending any pilot's idiosyncrasies as okay is not okay. Fly the book, so I don't have to guess what the heck it is you're doing.

However, if it's a style thing that the book doesn't discourage or outright prohibit, go for it. Have fun and fly an airplane.

 

[jimcav]

I fear this is becoming an FO vs CA thread. Not good. The point of the thread started as a technical question.

Remember, most FOs here where Captains elsewhere. And I suspect you were an FO at some point, as well.

That said, defending any pilot's idiosyncrasies as okay is not okay. Fly the book, so I don't have to guess what the heck it is you're doing.

However, if it's a style thing that the book doesn't discourage or outright prohibit, go for it. Have fun and fly an airplane.

I too was a capt at my prior company. However I did not show up and declare myself co captain because of it.Your generation is not the first to consist of prior captains. I too, along with many others had to endure some pompus f**ks while sitting in the right seat. I know it sucks, but learn from the good, and the bad. Your company has been around for a LONG time and there are probably some characters,along with a few culture issues. So what if they compare everything too the-200? Listen to the stories and learn about the jet from the old timers.

 

[tico]

I fear this is becoming an FO vs CA thread. Not good. The point of the thread started as a technical question.

Remember, most FOs here where Captains elsewhere. And I suspect you were an FO at some point, as well.

That said, defending any pilot's idiosyncrasies as okay is not okay. Fly the book, so I don't have to guess what the heck it is you're doing.

However, if it's a style thing that the book doesn't discourage or outright prohibit, go for it. Have fun and fly an airplane.

All true, however no one and I do mean no one will wonder what you are doing if you align the heading bug with the heading indicator

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Okay, here's how it boils down so far:

2 do it because it's a safety thing
3 it's not a safety thing
1 don't be annoyed
5 screw with your captain
6 be a jerk to your FO/FOs are babies
2 live and let live
3 leave it alone, I'm flying
3 talked about other planes
4 it's an old habit

Some posts had more than one point.

Seems to me that only one person has said where the technique came from, and it doesn't apply anymore. To most people it's a habit. Some think that if the PNF wants to sync it, fine. Other think the PNF shouldn't be touching the controls.

Fubi answered my question, thanks.

Oh, and we also learned that all captains are a55holes and all FOs are babies.

 

[thunderworm]

Yeah, I do. Its an old ingrained habit and I'll tell you exactly where it comes from.

When we first got the 737-400, there was no GPS installed. The FMCs worked the navigation from either the INS or by radio updating. The problem came from if the INS lost track or got too much error, the navigation system defaulted to HDG SEL with no warning to the pilots. Company policy to combat this was to keep the heading but married to whatever heading the FMS was using to navigate the selected track.

This happened to me one night on the way to PSP. The Capt was flying and had left the heading bug 90 degrees off course. He had also selected 10 degrees angle of bank for passenger comfort.

When the FMCs lost track, the airplane defaulted to HDG SEL and began a gentle turn to the left. Unfortunately, at the time, we were skirting a hot MOA. Before we realized what was going on, we got the ATC call "Alaska XXX. Where are you going?"

Oops.

That's where that "marry the bugs" stuff comes from. I've been doing it for so long, now its a habit.

i too fly the 400 and if the ins fails it does not fail to heading select. it fails to fly the heading you are on. so many people misread this and they are way wrong. it is good to merry the heading bug but who cares if it is off by a couple of degrees. you should turn your heading bug to the correct heading then push heading select so you are sure that is the correct heading before turning. too many push heading select the turn the heading bug.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Maybe it doesn't now, but it sure did then. As I said, I was a victim of it. They've only changed the FMS software about 50 times, so it may not do it now.

I was just letting Crunk in on how our senior Capts. acquired the habit.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Is it settled yet?

just wondering.....












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[ImbracableCrunk]

I was just letting Crunk in on how our senior Capts. acquired the habit.

Thanks, that's exactly the info I was looking for.

I'm gonna take a keyword from your post: habit.

That's all it is, a habit. Most people don't know why they do it, they just do it.

Kinda like knocking on wood. Or putting the gate info in on the pos page when you're using GPS coords.

 

[b707guy]

Other than being an annoyance to the more-anal among us, is there a problem with "marrying" the bugs in the aircraft in question? It still applies as a good practice (and therefore habit) in my current antiquated but beloved steed, but we have no procedure dictating it.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Other than being an annoyance to the more-anal among us, is there a problem with "marrying" the bugs in the aircraft in question? It still applies as a good practice (and therefore habit) in my current antiquated but beloved steed, but we have no procedure dictating it.

On the 737s I fly, apparently it's an old habit. An old habit doesn't equal a good habit. It's not a bad habit, just a habit.

This came up because a Captain I flew with had his hand on the heading bug at least once a minute on his leg. On my leg he got irked that I didn't do the same. Should he have been irked? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

 

[b707guy]

On my leg he got irked that I didn't do the same. Should he have been irked? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Ahh, there's the rub. From your description, I'd have to side with you here. But at the same time, I frequently go halfway or more across the country on a direct clearance (one of the advantages of flying when most people are sound asleep), and the heading doesn't change THAT much. I'd hope maybe six or so "bug nuptials" in three+ hours of great circle cruise wouldn't be too much for you!:laugh:

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

"bug nuptials"

Classic. I wish I could rename the thread!

 

[HalinTexas]

On the 737s I fly, apparently it's an old habit. An old habit doesn't equal a good habit. It's not a bad habit, just a habit.

This came up because a Captain I flew with had his hand on the heading bug at least once a minute on his leg. On my leg he got irked that I didn't do the same. Should he have been irked? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

No.

Ask him to educate you, "Is it in the manual?" then let him do all the marrying. Don't ever touch it unless ATC assigns a heading.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

The following is from an article I read recently titled:

Smart Avionics Do Stupid Things

We recommend "step down" disabling of automation wherever possible. For example, many (if not most) pilots immediatly disconnect the autopilot if it makes an unexpected turn... This action gives the pilot control but dramatically increases workload right when having an autopilot is most helpful. Instead, we recommend engaging the heading mode. Now the pilot has control to send the aircraft in any direction, but without nearly the increase in workload. To make this work, you should be continually syncing your heading bug as you fly. Automation still demands good habits.

 

[awacs]

Viva La Airbus!

The Airbus only activates the heading bug when you select (pull) heading. It keeps these kind of discussions from the flight deck.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Is it settled yet?​

just wondering.....​

Not yet, but I have requested the help of an expert. Let's see if he shows up to settle this once and for all.

 

[instructordude]

Some captains just have wierd idiosyncracies. Part of being a good copilot is to just deal with it. Some day you will be the boss and get to set the tone.

Part of being being a good man is not putting up with the blowhard in the left seat.

Even if it is in the manual there is nothing wrong with doing it your way and telling the old fart to stuff it. I told a guy the other day "When it's my leg it is my aircraft.......questions?????" He didn't like it but I decided then I would set the tone for the trip.

As far as heading control if he marrys the bug and gets pissed off whe you don't; when it is his leg, turn the bug out 180 degrees everytime he does it and laugh at him. See what he says to that.

 

[Cobra17]

"When it's my leg it is my aircraft.......questions?????" He didn't like it but I decided then I would set the tone for the trip.

you go girl

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

This message is hidden because instructordude is on your ignore list.

 

[instructordude]

This message is hidden because ImbracableCrunk is on your ignore list.

 

[CA1900]

Your troll-fu is failing you, InstructorDude. :laugh:

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Part of being being a good man is not putting up with the blowhard in the left seat.

Even if it is in the manual there is nothing wrong with doing it your way and telling the old fart to stuff it. I told a guy the other day "When it's my leg it is my aircraft.......questions?????" He didn't like it but I decided then I would set the tone for the trip.

As far as heading control if he marrys the bug and gets pissed off whe you don't; when it is his leg, turn the bug out 180 degrees everytime he does it and laugh at him. See what he says to that.

Sure you would. Good CRM doesn't mean you get an equal say in anything. All it means is that you have the right to be heard. The Captain gets to then determine if what you spew out your pie hole provides anything of worth (In your case I'm guessing probably not). I recommend you do one of two things:

1) Refresh your memory on what CRM and professional standards really are; or:

2) Move to South America where you can get your Captain slot and your 5-bar epaulets - that way you can overcome your epaulet envy.

 

[b707guy]

Even if it is in the manual there is nothing wrong with doing it your way and telling the old fart to stuff it. I told a guy the other day "When it's my leg it is my aircraft.......questions?????"

And my response would have been "well, I guess it isn't your leg". Now make yourself useful and peel us some grapes.

Old fart Capt: Close your eyes and tell me what you see.

You as FO: Uh, nothing!

Old fart Capt: VERY GOOD! - that's what's YOURS in this airplane today. Now open your eyes. Everything you see inside these windows is mine. Questions?

Fortunately, just about all of the people I have the privilege of working with don't create such an atmosphere. Guess you're not one of them. You continue to reveal exactly what part of a "good man" you are.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Just ignore him. He gets off on this. And is distracting people from what I thought was a good debate.

I'd like to read the rest of that article about step-down automation. Where did you find it?

On the 737, I think CWS would do that quite nicely. If the LNAV causes an un-expected turn, couldn't you deselect it and level the wings? Or simply override the A/P in to CWS Roll?

The same would apply if ATC said fly current heading - if you're not in a turn, just deselect LNAV.

I personally would take the 2 seconds max to dial the correct heading and then hit HDG SEL.

 

[pipe]

CWS - most incredible thing in aviation since Orville and Wilbur.

Boeing's automation blows.

PIPE

 

[Captzaahlie]

This message is hidden because ImbracableCrunk is on your ignore list.

Could we make an exception for the "dude" and then he could do us all a favor and wipe himself off FI ?



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