Delta in LAX

[clippyrip]

Does anyone know what the lowest new Delta seniority number is holding LAX?

 

[Bluto]

Why? Who's asking?

The -800 plug is an early '08 hire.

 

[clippyrip]

I am an NWA pilot who will probably get displaced off the 747-200. If it happens after SOC then I was looking at LAX.

Not really sure what -800 plug means?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Another question for the RDs. After poking around deltanet and looking at your AE, is it safe to assume that those are y'alls old Delta sen.#s not the new #? Also, after a quick glance that each category (ie. atl 7er capt, slc73fo etc) are not in seniority order. How are the guys ranked/listed on the award/displacement??? Is it random, alpha, emp.# or something else?? Thanks

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You are looking at the displacement bid. Look at the Category list. It is in order
Yes, they are old numbers due to some IT issue.

 

[General Lee]

I am an NWA pilot who will probably get displaced off the 747-200. If it happens after SOC then I was looking at LAX.

Not really sure what -800 plug means?

We are hearing now that SOC could happen a year from now (Jan, 10), and I would think that if NWA will be parking their 742s "within a year", then a displacement bid on the NWA side would happen prior to that. It sure as heck wouldn't be fair to displace any DL guys when it was your fleet and this was announced prior to SOC. To say that NWA would not have parked the 742s under the same bad economy is wrong, as UPS just parked their own 742s right after the Xmas "Peak." I guess it could be arbitrated.....

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[clippyrip]

We are hearing now that SOC could happen a year from now (Jan, 10), and I would think that if NWA will be parking their 742s "within a year", then a displacement bid on the NWA side would happen prior to that. It sure as heck wouldn't be fair to displace any DL guys when it was your fleet and this was announced prior to SOC.

I see you point, I don't agree but I see it. If it happens after SOC and I got the seniority, then I plan on displacing someone out of LAX.

 

[clippyrip]

It sure as heck wouldn't be fair to displace any DL guys when it was your fleet and this was announced prior to SOC.

By that rationale, any fleet announcements prior to SOC should not apply the the opposite side. In other words, all the jobs that will come from increasing the DC9 workload should only be available to NWA pilots. I doubt you would sing that song if the difference was furloughs for the Delta newbies. Soon enough the only jobs available to them will be the DC9, so they can thank their lucky stars they are still here and flying. Otherwise its sofa city.

 

[General Lee]

I see you point, I don't agree but I see it. If it happens after SOC and I got the seniority, then I plan on displacing someone out of LAX.

I got ya. I still don't think it would be fair, and I asked a CP last Friday if our SOC would be completed in April or May, and he asked "which year?" I know they are aiming for it to be sooner to help with synergies, but the FAA doesn't always work so fast. Most of the ANC Captains and FOs are fairly senior from what I remember, and it would be a HUGE displacement bid to have 200 out of the 300 pilots there bump other senior guys around and down. Our latest displacement bid had a conversion timetable through Jan of 10, meaning people might not be converted to a new base or finish training on new equipment until then.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

By that rationale, any fleet announcements prior to SOC should not apply the the opposite side. In other words, all the jobs that will come from increasing the DC9 workload should only be available to NWA pilots. I doubt you would sing that same song if the difference was furloughs for the Delta newbies.

We are short on the MD88, hence our large displacement bid. And, if we decided to park a fleet and announced it prior to SOC, then you would be saying the same thing. The arbitrators knew something like this could happen, and we all knew the 742s were on the way out. I don't want them to go either, but unfortunately it has to be fair, and that 742 operation has been doing poorly for awhile. The only reason you kept it for the last couple of years was for the NRT slots. Had you stayed stand alone, you might have found other planes to fill in, while the 742s would have gone away anyway.


FDJ2 printed this about the 74Fs in a different thread about them:


After looking at all the facts, neutral arbitrators stated the following concerning the aging 747F fleet at NWA:

"Questions exist, as well, as to the future of Northwest freighter business both from an equipment standpoint and in terms of the general business outlook. The 747-200 freighters attached to that enterprise are uncompetitive in an increasingly competitive arena for cargo operations and it is unclear to what extent this would have remained a vital operation for NWA.28 Market conditions have changed dramatically since 2005, when demand for air cargo lift was high, particularly on routes from Asia to America.29 NWA has encountered a meaningful drop-off in demand in several of the routes served by NWA.30 Fuel prices have caused the 25-year-old Northwest 747’s to be uneconomic, Chinese carriers are providing more competition and NWA has dropped its daily service to Guangzhou, China.31 . In addition to being less fuel-efficient, the 747’s in the NWA fleet are smaller and have a shorter range than the 747-400’s flown by competitors. 32 The reduction in the freight fleet has been from 14 airplanes down to 10 and block hours have been decreased by 60%.33 As of September of 2008, Northwest has dropped Narita/Bangkok, Singapore/Hong Kong, Narita/Manila, Narita/Taipei, Shanghai/Anchorage, Bangkok/Singapore, and Hong Kong/Manila.34"



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

We are hearing now that SOC could happen a year from now (Jan, 10), and I would think that if NWA will be parking their 742s "within a year", then a displacement bid on the NWA side would happen prior to that.

I think it is unlikely DAL would go through the expense of putting the 747-200 on its certificate and than park the fleet. My guess is that the 747-200s will be parked prior to SOC, but if I'm wrong, than 747-200 pilots have every right to execute their seniority as they see fit. It sucks whenever anyone gets displaced, but we're one pilot group now. We have one contract and one list. We need to stop seeing each other as former this or former that.

 

[General Lee]

I think it is unlikely DAL would go through the expense of putting the 747-200 on its certificate and than park the fleet. My guess is that the 747-200s will be parked prior to SOC, but if I'm wrong, than 747-200 pilots have every right to execute their seniority as they see fit. It sucks whenever anyone gets displaced, but we're one pilot group now. We have one contract and one list. We need to stop seeing each other as former this or former that.

I understand that. But, we ALL knew it was coming. And, I also know we are all "brothers and sisters" now, but even the neutrals knew something like this could happen, and that is why they stated that should a mass parking occur, it would affect that particular group prior to SOC. The DL pilots did not cause the cargo business to dry up. It is unfortunate, but neither of us can do anything about it, except to know what is "fair and just."


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[clippyrip]

I understand that. But, we ALL knew it was coming.

We all knew a merger was coming in 07' but some of your 08' newbies still got to enjoy a leapfrog. Fair is fair.

The DL pilots did not cause the cargo business to dry up.

NWA pilots didn't either. The merged management decided not to continue.

 

[NuGuy]

We all knew a merger was coming in 07' but some of your 08' newbies still got to enjoy a leapfrog. Fair is fair.

NWA pilots didn't either. The merged management decided not to continue.

Heyas Clippy,

Yup. While there is language in the AWARD portion of the SLI opinion (which is the only part that matters) regarding replacement aircraft, there's nothing in it about "gee willikers, we thought something like this might happen, soo we don't think it's fair".

If guys are displaced after SOC, they go wherever.

It is what it is, and it cuts both ways.

Nu

 

[another cfii]

I see you point, I don't agree but I see it. If it happens after SOC and I got the seniority, then I plan on displacing someone out of LAX.

If the 742 is parked after SOC, how does the no bump/flush clause works? The last displacement bid has already flushed some junior folks out of LAX, by VD/MD from other surplus categories.

If a displacement bid comes out after SOC that includes the 742, can any FNWA VD/MD any FDAL out of his current category? I thought for any FNWA to enter a FDAL base (and vice versa) is through AE vacancies, is that correct? I've already lost my base, and i feel my ticket back home is getting slimmer as we get closer to SOC. Once SOC completes, most of us that are out of their intended dormiciles may have to wait a while before our seniority can holds it again. (Would be nice if they extend our reinstatement period I'm just praying that the rumored SEA base will take shape soon!

 

[General Lee]

Heyas Clippy,

Yup. While there is language in the AWARD portion of the SLI opinion (which is the only part that matters) regarding replacement aircraft, there's nothing in it about "gee willikers, we thought something like this might happen, soo we don't think it's fair".

If guys are displaced after SOC, they go wherever.

It is what it is, and it cuts both ways.

Nu

If this truly is what the Neutrals thought about the 74F cargo operation, then I guess we should bring that back to their attention if and when we arbitrate again.....(with them, mind you)

After looking at all the facts, neutral arbitrators stated the following concerning the aging 747F fleet at NWA:

"Questions exist, as well, as to the future of Northwest freighter business both from an equipment standpoint and in terms of the general business outlook. The 747-200 freighters attached to that enterprise are uncompetitive in an increasingly competitive arena for cargo operations and it is unclear to what extent this would have remained a vital operation for NWA.28 Market conditions have changed dramatically since 2005, when demand for air cargo lift was high, particularly on routes from Asia to America.29 NWA has encountered a meaningful drop-off in demand in several of the routes served by NWA.30 Fuel prices have caused the 25-year-old Northwest 747’s to be uneconomic, Chinese carriers are providing more competition and NWA has dropped its daily service to Guangzhou, China.31 . In addition to being less fuel-efficient, the 747’s in the NWA fleet are smaller and have a shorter range than the 747-400’s flown by competitors. 32 The reduction in the freight fleet has been from 14 airplanes down to 10 and block hours have been decreased by 60%.33 As of September of 2008, Northwest has dropped Narita/Bangkok, Singapore/Hong Kong, Narita/Manila, Narita/Taipei, Shanghai/Anchorage, Bangkok/Singapore, and Hong Kong/Manila.34



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[clippyrip]

"Questions exist, as well, as to the future of Northwest freighter business both from an equipment standpoint and in terms of the general business outlook.

No question anymore.....It was merged management that made that decision.

Fuel prices have caused the 25-year-old Northwest 747’s to be uneconomic

Times changed, fuel is at $40 a barrel. Fuel was $100+ a barrel at the time this statement was made.

The reduction in the freight fleet has been from 14 airplanes down to 10 and block hours have been decreased by 60%.33 As of September of 2008

This was after the merger announcement which the arbitrators said was the dividing line between the two carriers.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas Clippy,

Yea, I don't see anything in the award about the disposition of displacements AFTER SOC. It's just not in there. So like FDJ says, the JPWA will apply.

As for the award, there's the list. There's fences for some airplanes. There's a no bump'n'flush BECAUSE of the award. There's some replacement language. There's a furlough fence for "pre-SOC". There's a bit about dispute resolution. That's about it.

You can certainly arbitrate terms that are part of the award, like what exactly is a "replacement" aircraft. But you can't arbitrate something that is NOT in the award.

It's too bad GL thinks it's not fair. If the arbitrators thought so too, there would have been award language to support that conclusion. There's not. It might be one of those "equity trade-offs" we keep hearing about that is used to justify a double digit seniority percentile shifts down the road.

Well, anyway, here is my advice:

If it happens post-soc, proceed direct LAX.

If it happens pre-soc, put yourself in a position where you have minimal freeze time, and extract a paid move if you can. If we're still under the APA system, think about going to an airplane that you're already qualed on, so you don't get much of a freeze. If we're under the AE system, get yourself in a position where you can VD or MD out and bump into LAX after SOC.

Remember that there is really minimal recall-rights language in the JPWA, so that works to your advantage.

Problem solved.

Nu

 

[General Lee]

Heyas Clippy,

Yea, I don't see anything in the award about the disposition of displacements AFTER SOC. It's just not in there. So like FDJ says, the JPWA will apply.

As for the award, there's the list. There's fences for some airplanes. There's a no bump'n'flush BECAUSE of the award. There's some replacement language. There's a furlough fence for "pre-SOC". There's a bit about dispute resolution. That's about it.

You can certainly arbitrate terms that are part of the award, like what exactly is a "replacement" aircraft. But you can't arbitrate something that is NOT in the award.

It's too bad GL thinks it's not fair. If the arbitrators thought so too, there would have been award language to support that conclusion. There's not. It might be one of those "equity trade-offs" we keep hearing about that is used to justify a double digit seniority percentile shifts down the road.

Well, anyway, here is my advice:

If it happens post-soc, proceed direct LAX.

If it happens pre-soc, put yourself in a position where you have minimal freeze time, and extract a paid move if you can. If we're still under the APA system, think about going to an airplane that you're already qualed on, so you don't get much of a freeze. If we're under the AE system, get yourself in a position where you can VD or MD out and bump into LAX after SOC.

Remember that there is really minimal recall-rights language in the JPWA, so that works to your advantage.

Problem solved.

Nu

Nu is probably right, and FDJ2 is also probably right when he said he thought it would go pre-SOC, so as not to incur the costs of placing a fleet on the certificate that will go away anyway. This is all probably moot.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[aircowboy]

I think we will miss the forever displacement rights at NWA.