KAL non type rated 777 Captains

[BayBum37ft]

Is it a risky proposition to get a 777 type rating if one is hired by KAL? I have 17 years on the 757, 12 years as a captain, and putting up 15-20 grand for a type rating seems very risky. I have read the horror stories of KAL training, does anyone have any recent factual stories, both good and bad? Right now I am flying a Lear and I need a change.
Thanks

BayBum

 

[rumrnr78]

With your times and interest in Asia I would suggest Viva Macau. They are looking for Captains with your kind of times. I think they work 6 weeks on and 2 off The guys I have met are a great bunch. If interested PM me and I'll get you a contact email.

Cheers- Rum

 

[Rook]

Expat?? WTF are ya Rum? PM me.

 

[JimmyKool]

What horror stories have you heard? I just started looking at KAL on the Guppy. I heard their training is great and they treat you extremely well. Can anyone else chime in on this? How do the schedules work out on the Guppy? It look's like roughly 10 on 10 off if you live in the US. Any other info on life at KAL would be greatly appreciated.

 

[FCNelson]

There is a long post on Pprune by a former DAL Captain/instructor pilot on virtually everything including the 777 who went to KAL and flunked training. It was written about a year ago, but almost everything he said is still valid. The guy was actually very straightforward in describing what happened and what.

It is just a different environment over there, and they have a chip on their shoulder to "prove" themselves and get westerners. As much as ALPA gets ripped on in the US, at least they offer us some protection. In the Far East, you're on your own, with no recourse, and the guy got royally screwed.

FCN

 

[typhoonpilot]

There is a long post on Pprune by a former DAL Captain/instructor pilot on virtually everything including the 777 who went to KAL and flunked training. It was written about a year ago, but almost everything he said is still valid. The guy was actually very straightforward in describing what happened and what.

It is just a different environment over there, and they have a chip on their shoulder to "prove" themselves and get westerners. As much as ALPA gets ripped on in the US, at least they offer us some protection. In the Far East, you're on your own, with no recourse, and the guy got royally screwed.

FCN

I've read his letter and talked to people at KAL about the training. The training issues are not about "proving" themselves or getting westerners per say. It's more about a disagreement between the KAL pilots and KAL management on staffing. The KAL pilots would rather see their own guys get upgraded then to have foreigners hired. The foreign pilots are caught in the middle. This issue appears to be worse on the B777 than other fleets.

That said, it has changed somewhat in the last year. The title Line Check Pilot has been changed to Line Instructor Pilot to reflect a bigger emphasis on training versus checking. Whether that's worked or not, I don't know.

Anyway, back to the DAL pilot. After reading his letter I'm fairly certain I would have failed him as well. He clearly didn't understand the effort and or attitude differences expected of a pilot at KAL versus DAL. That point is key. Foreign airlines do not spoon feed pilots to the extent that U.S. carriers do. If one wants to be a successful contract or foreign pilot then they need to make a serious effort to learn the procedures and culture of the airline they go to work for. They need to learn how to fit in and not question why things are done the way they are while in training. Cooperate and graduate.


Typhoonpilot

 

[Gillegan]

I have to agree with Typhoonpilot. I too have read that letter and what leapt out at me was the attitude; "That's not how we did it at Delta." There are lots of ways to do things in aviation and no one has a monopoly on the correct way. Unfortunately, many (not all) pilots from the U.S. seem to have a hard time with this concept.

 

[TransMach]

Typhoonpilot ...

I'm sure you're right. I've changed carriers several times ... there's more than one way to skin a cat, but the cat still gets skinned!

TransMach

 

[fareview]

Below is a response I gave to another post on KAL interview that was subsequently removed from the 'Majors' forum:



"I have a number of former colleagues over there on the 744 (one as an FO).

The sim and situational questions is the order of the day. Technically if you have flown intl widebody its nothing too tricky.

My FO buddy was struggling however...long hours of no social interaction whatsoever from the other cockpit crew.

During recruitment and training they were all very courteous and professional which he thought would bode well for the line ops...not so. Outside of SOPs a lot of korean chatting amongst the other crew with little or no attempt at establishing rapport with him.

That said he is over it and flys SOP's, gets paid good money and goes home. He parties on the rd on his own unless with expat skippers and is starting to get used to it without the early sensitivities.

To be fair to the Koreans ...how would you like to be an eight year FO and have a DEC come in and take a seat that could have been yours..hence the negativity towards expats which trickle down to the expat FO's.

On the Capts side..its easier...i.e. its good to be the king.

Word of caution with Asian carriers...they are absolutely by the book and take standardization to the 'nth degree. If the FCOM says the response is 'CHECK' and you respond 'CHECKS' or 'CHECKED' it is grounds to stop the sim...and they do. A number of early retiree US major heavy skippers went over there to ride out their final years...a lot of them have made it however five in one class busted. i ahve a buddy who was in training at the time and although the five guys side of the story would scare you away...the other view was that they were not willing to fully play the Asian airline training game...i.e. agreeing with some dope with far less experience that doing it their way was the only way.

good luck and enjoy Asia...its a fun ride.

fv"

 

[flyboyike]

Anyway, back to the DAL pilot. After reading his letter I'm fairly certain I would have failed him as well.

Do you have a link to that letter? I'm just curious to see what the guy actually said.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Here ya go:

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/326213-korean-kal-screwing-over-ex-pats.html


Typhoonpilot

 

[flyboyike]

Here ya go:

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/326213-korean-kal-screwing-over-ex-pats.html


Typhoonpilot

Pretty sad thing to read. I suppose it's hard for a person of that gentleman's age to be treated like a total newbie. I recently interviewed at another regional airline and was treated at best like about a 300hr fresh CFI that just came out of a C172 and not like an airline pilot who's been flying the exact aircraft this other regional flies for two years with no problems. And I'm only 33, I can imagine what it must be like to be 56 and be treated like crap.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Pretty sad thing to read. I suppose it's hard for a person of that gentleman's age to be treated like a total newbie. I recently interviewed at another regional airline and was treated at best like about a 300hr fresh CFI that just came out of a C172 and not like an airline pilot who's been flying the exact aircraft this other regional flies for two years with no problems. And I'm only 33, I can imagine what it must be like to be 56 and be treated like crap.

I think the point you are missing is that he brought most of his problems on himself. That's not to say that I defend Korean's training style or the fact that they have certain check airman who might be less than 100% professional.

What I am saying is that attitude as an expat is just as important, if not more so, than ability. That particular pilot very clearly had a negative attitude and was not willing to adapt to KAL's culture. He was judgmental, argumentative, and unaccepting of the way that KAL wanted him to operate the aircraft.


TP

 

[Dumb Pilot]

It seems that the stories I've heard from a couple of guys there at KAL are similar to what you hear here at ANA, some guys go through it without much drama and others find themselves in a couch talking about their childhoods.

 

[flyboyike]

What I am saying is that attitude as an expat is just as important, if not more so, than ability. That particular pilot very clearly had a negative attitude and was not willing to adapt to KAL's culture. He was judgmental, argumentative, and unaccepting of the way that KAL wanted him to operate the aircraft.

I don't disagree. I just think as one ages and gets more and more experience, it becomes harder and harder to "adapt to another culture". Especially if said culture leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Word of caution with Asian carriers...they are absolutely by the book and take standardization to the 'nth degree. If the FCOM says the response is 'CHECK' and you respond 'CHECKS' or 'CHECKED' it is grounds to stop the sim...and they do.

Our instructor stopped the sim one day and showed us that the calls for the flight controls check had the word aileron only once "ailerons left, right" (I said ailerons left, ailerons right) after we had passed our first JCAB check ride we went out with him for a few frosty beverages, he explained to us that they were very strict on the calls because that was the only way that crews from different native languages and heavy accents could interact not only during normal ops but more importantly during an emergency. Now that I'm on the line I understand what he meant because the Japanese I have no problems understanding but the Aussies? outside of the checklists and standard calls, I only get half of what they say

 

[ozpilot]

but the Aussies? outside of the checklists and standard calls, I only get half of what they say

Hey .....

 

[Dieterly]

Please translate:

dunny
kip
sunnies
sambo
third income
thunder box

thanks...

 

[ozpilot]

Please translate:

dunny
kip
sunnies
sambo
third income
thunder box

thanks...

Not sure if your serious, but I'll take a shot ...

dunny - toilet
kip - a nap
sunnies - sun glasses
sambo - a sandwich
third income - I have no idea!
thunder box - toilet

Here's a good website for translations:

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozatwar/aussieslang.htm#k

 

[batsky2000]

Hello to the KAL guys, I have an interview for a B737 PIC position in April through CCL and have a few questions about how the contract works to those who are in the know.

I am currently flying a BBJ, G-IV, and a Challenger for a private company that is shutting down their flight department like most of them here in the US. I have 1500 hours as a PIC on the BBJ. I was laid off from Delta way back in 2001 and have not been interested in working for an airline again, but the KAL contarct is rather appealing to me. I would get more time off than I get now, and I enjoy flying in Asia, and have experience in that part of the world.

1) What is the schedule like while you are on duty? Is it 6 on 1 off or something else? How are the schedules built? Do you get a reserve line for a bit, or do you get a real line right off the bat?

2) I plan to take the 11 days off option, how many days do they give you to commute? I will be using ATL as my base, and heard that you get 3 days, 2 to travel to work, a 1 to get home, but just want to get the real number from someone who knows.

3) I understand that they put you up at the Hyatt while at base, what types of ammenities do they offer if any? Do you guys get free breakfast, free internet? The Internet would be the best freebe

4) Does the company issue a cell phone for company use, or do you need to get one yourself? How do they normally contact you?

5) Who pays for the business class tickets? Does the cotractor (CCL) in my case pay for the ticket, or does KAL put you on a positive space business class ticket to/from your base? I ask this because I am interested if you guys collect FF miles, I am platinum medalion on Delta with about 900,000 miles in my account and am just wondering since KAL is a skyteam member. This would be a huge bonus to this contract, if not are there ways to get the miles?

Thanks for the answers in advance