Best Twin for ME instruction?

[weekendwarrior]

Anyone care to chime on on the best twin for MEL instruction? My criteria is price, operating cost, mx, insurance, etc. Mostly a financial discussion, with a mix of good training value as well.

My thoughts are:
Seminole
Aztec
Twin Comanche

 

[7574EVER]

I don't have any experience with the Aztec; but, given it's age I would assume it's a maint. hog. The Twin Comanche is a GREAT airplane; but, insurance is through the roof.

That said, out of the three aircraft you listed I'd probably say the Seminole.

 

[brokeflyer]

Aztec is a good plane, it performs really good.

Did my initial in a 310R....good complex plane that was rather hard to handle.

 

[eagle06]

of those - probably the PA44. You may also want to consider the BE76.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Seminole

 

[JAFI]

Order of preference IMHO:

BE76 - Great trainer, good performance, good systems and cockpit layout. (not on your list but look for this one)

Seminole - OK if it is not too hot for performance, cockpit tight, harder to see all of the panel than the BE76. I flew one that one prop sometimes would come out of feather, then sometimes it would not.

Aztec - great aircraft performance (for a light twin) If you can find one that has been maintained well enough for training and the owner will allow training in one.

Twin Comanche - not a good trainer IMHO. Requires more speed to operate safer. Smaller wing than I like for a trainer. As I recall many had problems with the gear. Or at least those who landed gear up said it was mechanical problems....

 

[weekendwarrior]

Thanks guys...I didn't want to go the Beech route, as I worked as a mechanic and HATED working on them. But, guess it depends on the airplane. I did my training in seminole, which I didn't care for, but bang for the buck you couldn't beat it. A 310 is a great airplane...have some time in them. But a conventional twin I'm not sure if insurance would be higher than a counter rotating twin.

 

[Hung Start]

Aztec is a good plane, it performs really good.

Did my initial in a 310R....good complex plane that was rather hard to handle.

I know it's not on the list, but a 310 will make a man out of ya. And, a better multi pilot.

Broke, you went up a notch in my book.:beer:

Hung

 

[sqwkvfr]

I'm probably gonna get a lot of crap for this and I know it's not on the list, but I would suggest exploring the use of a Seneca II.

I've been instructing in them for over a thousand hours now, and I find them a very stable, forgiving platform that is still plenty capable.

Don't get me wrong, the MAP adjustment will make your hair gray in short order and MX can be a problem, but the low acquisition costs of a II might help make up for some of that.

I think that it flies a lot like a Seminole (note that I said "flies," not to including takeoff and landing) with more interior room and overall capability.

Some people don't like the Seneca for a primary trainer mainly because of the simple turbocharging system and the forward CG that'll require you and/or your student to jockey ballast around, but I've come around to liking them.

Like I said, I realize that it's not on your list, I just wanted to make sure that you weren't discounting what can be a pretty good trainer.

 

[Mach]

I know it's not on the list, but a 310 will make a man out of ya. And, a better multi pilot.

Broke, you went up a notch in my book.:beer:

Hung

Agree, did my multi in a 310. And signed off many students in a 310.

 

[Mach]

Very capable airplane with great single engine performance.

 

[AC560]

Very capable airplane with great single engine performance.

Not an airplane I would pick for ME instruction though.

 

[Mach]

Why?

If $hit were to hit the fan. I want to be able to climb on one engine, not make a smoking hole in the ground.

 

[AC560]

If $hit were to hit the fan. I want to be able to climb on one engine, not make a smoking hole in the ground.

It is a relatively complex and difficult to fly airplane with high maintenance costs. I have a lot of 320 hours. Great airplane, nothing against it. It wouldn't be my first choice for multi instruction which is what the question was.

 

[AiRegency]

Beechcraft Duke. That'll make a man out of ya.

 

[Andy Neill]

Where does the Seneca fit in this mix?

 

[Princedietrich]

Having flown the PA44 and the BE76, I'd have to give my preference to the Dutchess. Granted you'll be able to find very new and relatively well-equipped and maintained Seminoles out there since they are still in production.

Never flown a Seneca, but will be taking one up in the next couple o weeks.

Never flown a 310, but have heard good things about them.

Never flown a Twin Commanche so I know nothing about them.

Never flown a Duke, but always wanted to.

If it were up to me, I'd go for a Baron. Did my comm-multi and MEI in a BE55 and signed off a few students in one. Did my ATP and few many hundreds of hours in a BE58. They're expensive, no denying it, but Barons are excellent airplanes. They definitely keep you on your toes, both as a trainee and as an instructor, because they can be very unforgiving (especially in terms of VMC).

 

[VW Pilot]

BE-76 or Travelair....I rode right seat in a BE-76...The set up is very nice.

 

[ackattacker]

I did a lot of instruction in a Twin Comanche and thought it was excellent for training. Of course not as docile as a Seminole. It has an honest-to-god Vmca and if you go below it single engine you'll know it quick. In my opinion this is a plus - makes for a better and safer twin pilot than one who learned on a training-wheels plane and then has to go on and fly a "real" twin.

All the other planes being discussed besides the Twin Comanche and Seminole will cost more to operate. The PA30 is only 160HP per side and is relatively simple systems-wise. Good speed for cross-country also. The gear is not as finicky as people say, but it is stiff and not easy to grease on. Most of the people who land a Twin Comanche gear up had no idea how to properly perform an emergency gear extension.

 

[JAFI]

Beechcraft Duke. That'll make a man out of ya.

Well, if you are going to go there - Beech 18 round engine - conventional gear......

 

[Hung Start]

Well, if you are going to go there - Beech 18 round engine - conventional gear......

Ohhhhh,,, no doubt about that.

Hung

 

[Princedietrich]

Well, if you are going to go there - Beech 18 round engine - conventional gear......

Well, how about......

um....

yeah, I got nothin.

 

[AC560]

Well, how about......

um....

yeah, I got nothin.

Aerostar for the win.

 

[Hung Start]

Nope,, sorry

Jafi has the win.

Hung

 

[JAFI]

Aerostar for the win.

AC, I thought about the aerostar (in iceing) but the BE18 with the tail wheel and the (for lack of a better word - tired) round engines, non standard instrument layout, stick shaker - would be a worse primary trainer.

But, "A" for effort....

 

[LivestockTony]

What's wrong with a tail wheel? Or round engines? :laugh:

 

[Tailwheelman]

Beech 18 all the way. Seriously though, having flown the aztruck, the twin comanche, the seminole, the apache (150hp and the Geronimo) my vote goes to the Travel Air. I think it flies the nicest of the lot and in my 4 years of owning one it has been a relatively maintenance free bird. Aside from the training aspect it also makes a nice X-C airplane. I regularly get 165kts at about 18gph. Not bad for a light twin. Just my 2 cents

 

[JAFI]

What's wrong with a tail wheel? Or round engines? :laugh:

To me, both are wonderful. A friend of mine took a soon to be ME pilot on a frieght run in a BE18 one night. The kid was following him on the controls during the landing and taxi in. The kid decided he wanted to stop the aircraft (without telling my friend) and parked the aircraft nose down in the dirt, tail high in the air.

Tailwheel, IMHO all cabin class Beech's are great aircraft. When was the last time you say a travelair out for student rental?

 

[Tailwheelman]

Sheble (I think thats how its spelled) Aviation in IGM has four of them for ME trainers. There is a school in Dallas, I believe out of RBD, that specializes in ME training over a three day course that has 3 or 4 of them. There is also two schools in Houston that each use one. Thats the few I know.

 

[JAFI]

Sheble (I think thats how its spelled) Aviation in IGM has four of them for ME trainers. There is a school in Dallas, I believe out of RBD, that specializes in ME training over a three day course that has 3 or 4 of them. There is also two schools in Houston that each use one. Thats the few I know.

Wow, that's great. I have not seen one in 20 years.