UAL 747-400 Parked in Mojave Desert!

[Flopgut]

Funny, but that statement reminds me of other recent issues in the airline world. i.e. "Age 60."

Hang on!! Speak of the devil! Why, for Pete's sake, are you not shouting to the rooftops about what has happened to your pension?! The UAW/GM builds marginal, very expensive cars. That's the only problem they've got and they are about to get bailed out. Your airline had the unspeakable happen in 2001 and got turned down TWICE for a loan gurantee form the ATSB. The disparity in treatment is unconscionable?! You've had opportunities to attempt to right this and instead you've sold out on scope and begged off a 40 year old retirement age rule. It appears to me that neither of those things have worked out too well for you. (I take no pleasure in pointing that out, btw) What's it going to take to get you to assert yourself?

 

[GuppyPuppy]

We all feel for you...but I just have one question. Free travel-gone? What are you talking about.
Not that it is a big deal, but free travel is not gone...never was. I just took a international trip in first class for free with my family on United.
Even if you are furloughed...you retain your free travel.

I just looked at your dates...looks like you left United 1/15/03...over 5 years ago?

I'm not asking for anyone's sympathy. Sorry if I came across that way. There were hundreds (maybe thousands) of UA and other airline pilots who had, or still have, a worse situation than mine.

The free travel was there at United for awhile. Then, just around the time of the Chapter 11 filing the company instituted a fee for employees to travel on United. Don't know if the fee is still there as I don't work for United anymore. Pilots could get around the fee if they were traveling by themselves by listing as a jumpseater.

Yes, I was furloughed early in 2003. My travel benefits ran out at the end of 2005. That's all the company would give us, or all that the union would fight for. I didn't get recalled until August of 2006. I officially separated from the company in July of 2007 as I didn't take my "take it or leave it" recall and couldn't take a military leave of absence as I'm not in the military.

GP

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Flopgut: What's it going to take to get you to assert yourself?

Excuse me, I must have read this wrong. You don't think UndauntedFlyer has asserted himself?

Look, the pensions are a done deal and a thing of the past. The fact is that they were traded off by ALPA to supposedly keep the airline afloat. You remember, screw the senior guys, save the airline to keep jobs for the "get out of my seat crowd." Then UAL-ALPA (still controlled by the "get out of my seat crowd") did everything it could to again screw the senior pilots by trying to stop change in the age-60 rule.

Of course in the end the age-60 rule changed (too late for me) and there is complete turmoil at UAL. Major downsizing. So now everyone is screwed. The "get out of my seat" crowd is either in the street "screwed royal" with little hope of finding a job in aviation or hanging on for dear life, while the new “more senior group” will be lucky if the airline stays in business for them to ever reach age 60.

So, OK, that’s airline business.

Not long ago I had an opportunity to fly the 777 for Air India: Sim check complete, visa obtained and ticket to Bombay in hand, to then be based in JFK, 7-on, 6-off, 5-star hotels and 12K per month. Nice deal but a few hours before my departure I said screw it. I'm finally done with the nightmare of all this crap. Besides, I don’t like Indian food very much.

Now I mostly just do some GA work, raise my 17-year old who has his Private, Instrument and M/E. Plus I ride my Goldwing more. Life is good.

I hope all of you are as fortunate as I was in this business.

 

[cal73cap]

Parking the 737's and the 6-8 400's is huge and they are probably not wanting to be that HUGE in case that may cause a merger to get denied.... they are sizing for a more certain merger. Remember, CAL has aircraft on order....close to 100 if the numbers on airline pilot central are correct. For a merger to happen, they don't need United's least efficient aircraft. Just my 2 cents.

CAL does not want United, just pieces after it shuts down, heard this from a lot of suits.

 

[saabservant]

Am I to believe that the senior guys got screwed by alpa for the benefit of juniors, when alpa gave up the pensions? Have to call BS on that. Do you really think alpa would do something that extreme, just for juniors? It does not make sense.

Pensions were given up because the MEC and NC AT THAT TIME were too scared to take a stand, were afraid for their jobs. They were not willing to walk away, management saw it, and bent them over. Period.
They were the poster children for how not to handle negotiations in bankruptcy.

Of course,my interpretation is suspect, as is my judgement, by leaving a good job in March to go to United. Seemed like a reasonable move at the time....
Am now going to school and on unemployment, pondering negotiating strategy with the mortgage banker to avoid foreclosure.
Having a few anger management issues....

 

[Sonny Crockett]

CAL does not want United, just pieces after it shuts down, heard this from a lot of suits.

Mostly the CAL Scabs talking.....you know the ones who fly in the right seat and take junior F/O jobs!

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Am I to believe that the senior guys got screwed by alpa for the benefit of juniors, when alpa gave up the pensions? Have to call BS on that. Do you really think alpa would do something that extreme, just for juniors? It does not make sense.

Is this statement a joke or what? Of course ALPA sold out the retired and the soon to be retired to save their jobs, or so they thought. In the end. of course, everyone is screwed at UAL, junior and senior.

BTW: I'm truly sorry you have been caught up in this mess. I do hope you may find your way back to a job you really love.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

CAL does not want United, just pieces after it shuts down, heard this from a lot of suits.

I am afraid you are right on this one. The airline business has become "every man for himself," and that's the problem too.

 

[saabservant]

Thanks, good luck as well...

Glenn's Gotta Go!

 

[Flopgut]

Excuse me, I must have read this wrong. You don't think UndauntedFlyer has asserted himself?

Look, the pensions are a done deal and a thing of the past. The fact is that they were traded off by ALPA to supposedly keep the airline afloat. You remember, screw the senior guys, save the airline to keep jobs for the "get out of my seat crowd." Then UAL-ALPA (still controlled by the "get out of my seat crowd") did everything it could to again screw the senior pilots by trying to stop change in the age-60 rule.

Of course in the end the age-60 rule changed (too late for me) and there is complete turmoil at UAL. Major downsizing. So now everyone is screwed. The "get out of my seat" crowd is either in the street "screwed royal" with little hope of finding a job in aviation or hanging on for dear life, while the new “more senior group” will be lucky if the airline stays in business for them to ever reach age 60.

So, OK, that’s airline business.

Not long ago I had an opportunity to fly the 777 for Air India: Sim check complete, visa obtained and ticket to Bombay in hand, to then be based in JFK, 7-on, 6-off, 5-star hotels and 12K per month. Nice deal but a few hours before my departure I said screw it. I'm finally done with the nightmare of all this crap. Besides, I don’t like Indian food very much.

Now I mostly just do some GA work, raise my 17-year old who has his Private, Instrument and M/E. Plus I ride my Goldwing more. Life is good.

I hope all of you are as fortunate as I was in this business.

Post of the year! (not cause it's good) You do know, you are your own worst enemy. You want to blame/sue somebody: It's you!

Nothing could be further from the truth on your A fund. Paul Whiteford's famous declaration: "I've saved the A fund", when he sold out the scope, was certainly NOT the old guys getting sold out for the junior! Your A fund was in tact until the second turn down from the ATSB. That second snub at the ATSB dollars was what enabled UAL to get rid of your money. Now is your opportunity to get off your wrinkly butt and mount a campaign to attempt to right this wrong. At the very least, you should be trying to make sure this doesn't happen to your kid or anyone else's kid.

You are all too typical of your generation. You want it all or nothing. You are used to getting it all. And getting that pretty easily, I might add. Well this time you got nothing. You wanted the seniority, you didn't want to work. You wouldn't go back to UAL, and you wouldn't take the deal in India. To the extent you tried to take everything you sealed your own fate in getting nothing. Blame yourself for whatever bitterness you hold.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Paul Whiteford's famous declaration: "I've saved the A fund", when he sold out the scope, was certainly NOT the old guys getting sold out for the junior! Your A fund was in tact until the second turn down from the ATSB. That second snub at the ATSB dollars was what enabled UAL to get rid of your money.

The above quote of yours is where you start to go wrong; ALPA was snookered by UAL and later by themselves. It was when the ATSB deal failed that ALPA caved in, giving away what little they had left, including the pension (most everything else had been given away during the snookering). The loss of the pension was the work of the "get out of my seat crowd." And that was followed by the resistance to the age-60 rule change that everyone knew was going to happen. The “Get out of my Seat Crowd” is very very short sighted by nature and definition too. So now the current situation is what you get for your work, nothing. Fortunately though, through the work of others, you will be able to work past age 60 at some Part 121 or 135 operation, maybe even UAL if you’re real lucky.

You seem to say I'm bitter; no I am enjoying my retirement. I have much good fortune to be grateful for: Before, during and after UAL.

 

[Flopgut]

The above quote of yours is where you start to go wrong; ALPA was snookered by UAL and later by themselves. It was when the ATSB deal failed that ALPA caved in, giving away what little they had left, including the pension (most everything else had been given away during the snookering).

"Snookering?" Your grasp of legalese is impressive!? Your claims don't match the sequence of events. Most junior pilots at UAL knew the pension was toast before PW sold out the scope clause. What YOU needed to do was put pressure on the ATSB to do the right thing. ATSB acted improperly with regard to it's mandate. Period. What you chose to do was emphasize the need for 65 and ignore the tough fight that would have helped everyone.

It's not too late. In my short exchange with Phil LaBeau I could detect that he understood the disparity. If UAW gets a huge bailout you need to renew the fight.

*BTW: from what I know of the lawsuit, I'd say you're quite bitter.

 

[contrail67]

CAL does not want United, just pieces after it shuts down, heard this from a lot of suits.

And CAL joined the Star Alliance...for a reason. They had a choice. United is not shutting down.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

BTW: from what I know of the lawsuit, I'd say you're quite bitter.

Flopgut: I'm not at all bitter, as I said earlier, I'm just enjoying life while I cling to my guns, religion and my Gold Wing.

Regarding the law suit, I'm not sure which one you mean, I do have several, and don’t you know that?

And for the rest first part of your post, that is all crap where you try to place blame on others for the failures of ALPA. It everyone's fault, UAL-ALPA was simply snookered, as I said.

 

[whatitdoing?]

And CAL joined the Star Alliance...for a reason. They had a choice. United is not shutting down.

We had a choice? What's that? Stay in the SkyTeam and then be where you are? Screw that.....

 

[contrail67]

I am not in Sky Team. Just saying that CAL had options...they joined the star alliance. A good move for them and just makes the star alliance stronger, or they would be out in the cold. Did not see them join AA's alliance.