SLI Arbitration/Negotiation Deadline Still 11/20

[FDJ2]

I'll say this politely. DALPA negotiated LOA19 behind NALPA's back.

I suggest you read Stevens testimony, DALPA attempted to get NALPA engaged several times. Unfortunately, NALPA dropped the ball. Too busy on vacation or just not organized enough to take advantage of the small window of opportunity. If we had followed NALPA's lead none of us would be getting an equity stake, pay raises and a better contract. By necesity DALPA had to cut itself free from the NALPA anchor chain and secure the contractual improvements 87% of NWA pilots voted in favor of.

 

[qxdash8]

LOA19 was negotiated by Delta pilots with Delta management. It was a side letter to OUR current contract. It wasn't done behind NWAPLA's back - and in fact has nothing to do with NW or its pilots. It was put in place to cover our behinds in the event that the merger went through without a JCBA (and, as it turned out, formed the basis for the JCBA that was passed by a very large margin by the NW pilots). The big question is why didn't NWALPA try to protect the interests of its members by negotiating a side letter of their own with NW managament?

 

[FDJ2]

B scale? l.....

Your MEC's words, not mine.

I remember how you guys squealed over LOA 19. You thought for sure we would use it as leverage against you. Probably because you wouldn't have hesitated to do it to us if you had half a chance. Screw each other over is part of your MEC culture and has resulted in 2 dozen arbitrations, not fighting the company, but fighting yourselves. That explains your paranoia and bloated committee structure where everyone is spying on each other and trying to screw the next guy from a different colored book. How dysfunctional is that? And now your MEC wants to inflict that disease on us. It's not going to happen. Not just because Delta pilots won't allow it, but because many NWA pilots want to desperately get rid of their own MEC's way of doing business.

Your MEC lied to you. You bought it. Delta pilots secured your pay raises. What was the ratification vote? 87%. GMAFB, that's probably the most overwhelming ratification of a TA in your history. NWA pilots aren't fools, they know a good deal when they see one. Better pay, better scheduling, better manning formulas, better profit sharing, better trip rigs, better DH pay, better QOL. We even got your furloughed pilots longevity for their furlough time. Something you were either not interested in doing or incapable of doing on your own. I'm proud we were able to get you those pay rates despite your MEC's inability to act. We'll all be better off thanks to Lee Moak's vision and the actions of the Delta MEC and pilots and we'll all make this a better place in the future.

 

[FDJ2]

The big question is why didn't NWALPA try to protect the interests of its members by negotiating a side letter of their own with NW managament?

That's easy. They weren't capable of doing it on their own.

 

[NuGuy]

Why should we ignore Nicolau?

Heyas FDJ,

The arbitrators will ignore the USAir award for good reason, and they have already telegraphed their intention to do so.

One of their goals, which was stated in the first day of the proceedings was to, failing a negotiated agreement, provide an award that "that the majority of pilots in each group will find acceptable".

Despite what the rest of us think, the USAir award was not acceptable to a vast majority of the AAA pilots. Not only does that award remain unimplemented, but the majority of pilots took the radical step of throwing those responsible off the property.

Someone mentioned that arbitrators want to keep future business. Do you think the arbitrator in the USAirways arbitration will ever work another avaition issue between pilots?

DOH is clearly acceptable as an integration method. It has been used relatively recently (2004) for a seniority list merger UNDER ALPA merger policy, and remains a viable concept.

Nu

 

[licorice]

Heyas FDJ,

One of their goals, which was stated in the first day of the proceedings was to, failing a negotiated agreement, provide an award that "that the majority of pilots in each group will find acceptable".

Now that really says a lot, doesn't it. That is a "telegraph" if ever I saw one! -An obvious "wink of the eye" and "thumbs up" to the NW side. DOH will rule the day, to the cheering approval of the vast majority of the combined pilot group!

Despite what the rest of us think, the USAir award was not acceptable to a vast majority of the AAA pilots.

Yet, somehow, magically, the arbitrators will make DOH acceptable to the "vast majority" that DL pilots represent, and at the same time find it inherently impossible to make ratios acceptable to the "vast minority" that NW pilots represent?

Not only does that award remain unimplemented, but the majority of pilots took the radical step of throwing those responsible off the property.

-You have it bass-ackwards, Newguy, they voted the union off the property first, -THAT is why it remains "unimplimented"...they simply refused to honor their commitment...something you obviously sympathize with and support. (you ain't got the votes though)

DOH is clearly acceptable as an integration method. It has been used relatively recently (2004) for a seniority list merger UNDER ALPA merger policy, and remains a viable concept.

Yeah, where? Give me the demographical details.
Nu

Nu: ALPA policy states, in a combined list- "maintain premerger (implying both groups) pilot status", NOT "apply an arbitrary metric chosen by ONE premerger group" to form a combined list. DOH is arbitrary, it bears no relation to positions/categories held, payrates etc., which are not arbitrary, they are, in fact, the only tangible things each premerger group brings to the merger, thus they ARE "premerger pilot status".

 

[NuGuy]

-You have it bass-ackwards, Newguy, they voted the union off the property first, -THAT is why it remains "unimplimented"...they simply refused to honor their commitment...something you obviously sympathize with and support. (you ain't got the votes though)

Heyas Lic,

It actually doesn't matter what I think. The point is that the award was unacceptable vast majority of the AAA pilots, and despite the method, remains unimplemented.

Besides, the only screaming I've heard along the same lines are DAL pilots threatening to do the same thing if they don't get their way.

Quote:
DOH is clearly acceptable as an integration method. It has been used relatively recently (2004) for a seniority list merger UNDER ALPA merger policy, and remains a viable concept.

Yeah, where? Give me the demographical details.

The Piedmont/Allegheny merger in 2004. It was actually a perfect microcosim of the NWA/DAL merger. One side slightly larger/slightly younger along with a slightly smaller/slightly older pilot group. The PDT side had larger aircraft and "better" bases (hmmm, where have we heard THAT before? ).

It was DOH with fences for the bases.

The NWA proposal is NOT the USAir proposal. 10 year fences gives the DAL guys exactly what they want... their airplanes and their flying. It keeps pre-merger expectations exactly where they are.

Nu

 

[Noserider76]

The NWA proposal is NOT the USAir proposal. 10 year fences gives the DAL guys exactly what they want... their airplanes and their flying. It keeps pre-merger expectations exactly where they are.

Nu

Again, 10 year fences are a very thinly veiled attempt to solely capitalize on your retirements then share the far greater number of DL retirements that occur after the fences come down. It would have to be at least 20 years for the DL guys to get the sole benefit of their large retirement years as you want for yours. DOH with 20 year fences and yearly arbitrations to find out who get the new (replacement equipment). Sounds familiar.

 

[licorice]

Heyas Lic,

It actually doesn't matter what I think. The point is that the award was unacceptable vast majority of the AAA pilots, and despite the method, remains unimplemented.

-And you seem to continue to hold this out as a shining example of why DOH should be favored over ratios, to "please" the majority....but again Nu, your logic is bass ackwards... in this merger, ratios will please the majority, and DOH will please the minority...simple, huh?

Besides, the only screaming I've heard along the same lines are DAL pilots threatening to do the same thing if they don't get their way.

Besides? besides what?--nice, artful segway to an insult. You, my friend, are the one who brought up the AAA merger, and held up their weaseling as some sort of righteous "sign" the arbitrators will award for the "majority", what your side, the "minority", wants!

The Piedmont/Allegheny merger in 2004. It was actually a perfect microcosim of the NWA/DAL merger. One side slightly larger/slightly younger along with a slightly smaller/slightly older pilot group. The PDT side had larger aircraft and "better" bases (hmmm, where have we heard THAT before? ).

A perfect microcosm..I'll bet. I wonder how much relative seniority each group lost/gained? I'm sure it was exactly the same as NW's proposed loss/gain..no doubt. Larger airplanes? -a fight to the death over 76 vs 70 seat aircraft! I'm sure the DOH "victors" had to be brought up to pay and contract parity with the "vanquished". No, Nu, I'll just take your word for it, because you say so it was a perfect microcosm of our merger. I'm sure the arbitrators yelled "eureka" when they reviewed this merger...it's a "done deal" now.

It was DOH with fences for the bases.

I guess the bases were "better" afterall!

The NWA proposal is NOT the USAir proposal. 10 year fences gives the DAL guys exactly what they want... their airplanes and their flying. It keeps pre-merger expectations exactly where they are.

--Hardly....but you would know what we want better than we would.
Nu

Nu, think about the phrase "maintain or improve premerger pilot status" If "status" means DOH, how do you "improve" DOH? "Status" obviously means aircraft positions, "jobs" brought to the merger.

 

[RedRum]

Kidding right?

The big question is why didn't NWALPA try to protect the interests of its members by negotiating a side letter of their own with NW managament?

I hope you are kidding, right? Ever heard of a guy named Doug Steenland? Not the nicest guy in the world. He would rather slide down a 1000 foot razor blade into a pool of alcohol before he negotiated a LOA 19-type deal with NWALPA. He laready got his money and frankly he probably snickered when he saw we were being left behind on that one.

Sad but true. Richard Anderson has a lot more integrity than Doug Steenland ever did.

 

[wings421]

Sorry to be out of touch, but are we going to find out Nov 20 or Dec 20? Is Dec 20 only the "written" opinion? Are we getting a "verbal" opinion on the 20th of Nov?

Nowhere to go but up, here.

 

[NuGuy]

Sorry to be out of touch, but are we going to find out Nov 20 or Dec 20? Is Dec 20 only the "written" opinion? Are we getting a "verbal" opinion on the 20th of Nov?

Nowhere to go but up, here.

Heyas Wings,

As it stands, verbal award is November 20th, and the written award is one month later.

The NWA Alpa merger committee has not agreed to change the date as of yet.

Nu

 

[~~~^~~~]

good!

 

[DAL737FO]

Heyas Wings,

As it stands, verbal award is November 20th, and the written award is one month later.

The NWA Alpa merger committee has not agreed to change the date as of yet.

Nu

Can one of you NWA guys post any information that you have as to why you think the award is still going to be on November 20th. Personally I want this over with and I'd rather T-day be destroyed than Christmas. Here is what we got from our MEC Chairman on Oct. 29th:

"In addition, the Arbitration Panel has requested that the award date be modified from November 20 to no later than December 20, 2008 so as to coincide with the date specified in the Process Agreement for the written opinion supporting the award. All parties have agreed to this change, and in accordance with the Transaction Framework Agreement, the SLI Process Agreement will be modified to reflect this later date. This change will [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]not [/FONT][/FONT]affect the SLI hearing dates. The third and final set of SLI" hearing days will take place November 15-17 in Los Angeles.

 

[NuGuy]

Can one of you NWA guys post any information that you have as to why you think the award is still going to be on November 20th. Personally I want this over with and I'd rather T-day be destroyed than Christmas. Here is what we got from our MEC Chairman on Oct. 29th:

Here ya go (from Nov 2nd MEC message):

The Arbitrators have indicated a benefit in issuing one opinion and award instead of a separate award by November 20 and then their opinion by December 20. They believe this is better way of completing the process, so that we receive both the award and opinion on the same day. Accepting this suggestion will not affect the last day of hearings, which under the already agreed to ground rules will be November 17.

While we are supportive of moving the announcement date of the award, it has not been signed off in a document at this time. We continue to work cooperatively to resolve this matter and will keep you informed.

Nu

 

[DAL737FO]

Thanks Nu,

It's funny how different the information is depending on which MEC puts it out. I want this over sooner than later.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Knowing most airline management and the games they play (esp when Ford & Harrison is in the equation), I wouldn't doubt they've given some pressing reason to delay it (and likely again), while the MECs play right into their hands and ensure a smooth holiday travel season.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

A strike or work action would not occur either way. It is totally out of the equation.
We will all just be Scrooges over Christmas.

 

[filejw]

Seeing as mediated talks have broken off looks like it will be plan A..... 20th NOV..

 

[DAL737FO]

Seeing as mediated talks have broken off looks like it will be plan A..... 20th NOV..

Here's my 2 cents,

If we have allowed the arbitrators the leeway to give the award and follow up documents both on December 20th then I would imagine that they will take that amount of time. (The problem is our side says we have extended it and the NWA side says they haven't signed anything in writing.) We still have three days of rebuttals November 15-17 regardless. So I would say that they arbitrators will not jump through hoops between the 18 and 20 if they have another month. Again this is just my opinion, I have no inside track.