Trickle down economics and the airlines

[cybourg10]

I believe the trickle down economic theory is the best for a nation IF those at the control do not corrupt the system. Since no human being is free from the temptations of corruption and greed the system will always have "cloggs" in it. It is not socialism for Obama to tax a little more at the top and give the ones likes us at the bottom a little bit more of a break. We might need a little more regulation so that the "Tiltons" of the world are not able to get away with robery at the highest level. For those of you that do not like socialism it is my advice that you find another country because you have been living under a socialist government your whole life except you probably have not made enough money to experience all the benefits. I would love a free market economy and trickle down economics but when humans are involved they can not be completly trusted. Rich people will always have the advantage, that is why we need to vote some people into office that are not so easily tempted by cash and if you think your party is the only answer you are kidding yourself. Bush never knew what is was like to actually work for a living without having your Dad call up the Saudis for a massive bailout, he never really earned anything without using his last name and that is why he never has or will understand why this trickle down system does not work because people like him are part of the problem not the solution.

 

[cybourg10]

Food for thought. As pilots- we are unionized for better QOL and pay. We fight hard for even the smallest raise like COLA, yet to my disbelief some pilots on this board that fight so hard for a buck raise are willing to vote for an instant pay cut-I'm not talking those making over 250,000. Obama is going to raise capital gains tax- whether you make a dollar or over 250,000. So as you fight for a better contract year after year- people on this board are willing to vote for a decrease in purchasing power that will wipe the raises and savings worked so hard for? Am I missing something?

I don't vote based on who is going to take more money out of my pocket, I vote on who will do a better job with that money they take.

 

[DrewBlows]

When gas prices went sky high, I cut my lawn guys who where costing me $80 bucks a month. Now that they are lower (lower taxes serve the same purpose) I'm considering hiring them back, thus a portion of the income my company pays me, is flowing through my household to another household. What is so difficult to understand here?

Last time I checked you can't buy groceries with "consideration". Your example might have merit if you actually hired the mowers back.

 

[Smacktard]

There is a LOT of greed and self serving behavior in the upper income brackets. The whole world is paying for it.

Greed and self serving behavior did cause the problem, only it wasn't the upper income brackets, it was the lower, middle and upper income brackets. Increasing taxes on the the rich will not solve the problem and, if history is any indication, will make things worse. But it's a feel good solution and that's what we're all about, symbolism over substance...

 

[Dizel8]

I think we should go the flat tax route or the sales tax route.

The redistribution of wealth is what comes out of a horses rear, I have no problem with taxes, but I do have a problem when I am forced to pay more than my fair share.

 

[olympus593]

Not quite. In Chile, Pinochet was a Marxist. He did not rise to power thru a rise in corporate control of the country. China is a Socialist Republic, state run corporations came after the fact as the Communist form of government took place in the 50's. The communists rose to power and built state run corporations to exert further power on the masses. And Iraq, well not sure yet, but nothing close to a country run by corporations.

The original post suggested that CEOs and the rich were making money off the backs of the rest of us and that trickledown economics have failed. The tenet of trickledown economics is that tax breaks to the rich and corporations will eventually work their way down. The Republicans are the party of trickle down economics, the Democrats are the party of higher taxes and redistribution of wealth, ie socialism.

It wasn't a stretch to then ask for the two types of government that best embody these principals, Socialism versus a corporate Plutocracy. In nearly EVERY case in history, socialism has been marked with corruption, genocide, control of the masses. There aren't many, if any, examples of a corporate Plutocracy.

So the point was; the CEOs and evil wealthy that control our major corporations seldom get so powerful that they control society and rule government, but socialist policies have failed throughout the history of mankind. We are on the verge of losing what this country was built on; the effort of the individual, all in the name of the collective good. I think what has worked against the trickledown economic policies are the brief lapses we have made into social engineering, ie The Community Reinvestment Act. Why go down the road we know will not work?

Pinochet a Marxist? That show us how much you know, he was an extreme rightwing nuts that tortured, killed and jailed anybody on the left of him.Thank you for playing and making yourself look like an A-S-S.

 

[Smacktard]

Pinochet a Marxist? That show us how much you know, he was an extreme rightwing nuts that tortured, killed and jailed anybody on the left of him.Thank you for playing and making yourself look like an A-S-S.

I stand corrected, I was reading about the 1970 election of Salvador Allende, the Marxist, who was removed from office by Pinochet in 1973. Pinochet was anything but the example Rez was using, ie to say Chile was run by corporate entities. Pinochet was a military officer turned dictator. Thru the use of the military, Pinochet privatized state controlled industries. And so my point; to use Chile as an example of what could happen here because of the rich getting richer and corporations becoming all powerful is absurd.

 

[Dude]

The American people are to blame for our mess! The blame stops there, brother. If folks would refuse to put up with this $hit, then it would stop; but no, we continue to buy their products, re-elect them, and listen to their BS. Fire your politicians, don't shop at stores that behave unethically, and keep your money in your pocket . Do this and it stops. Do it not and the cycle continues. Corruption is not a monster that cannot be killed. When stupid, ignorant, and complacent citizens refuse to vote and hold ELECTED officials accountable, then they are complicit. I wrote a letter to my senator explaining to him/staffer that I would steadfastly work to elect someone else and campaign on their behalf if he voted for the bailout. Well, I voted early and he didn't get mine. That's how these issues get solved. Threaten to fire them and then do it. As far as corporate greed, don't give them your money, even if it's inconvenient.

Simple folk do not drive the economy. Businesses do. Businesses manufacture products that people buy and businesses hire people to facilitate the manufacturing process. After products are made, another company has to transport and distribute the product. After that, the retailer has to hire people to sell it to you. The viability of the economy depends on the evil rich people that create the jobs so that I/you can have money to put into the economy.

 

[Soverytired]

That's a stupid statement. I guess spending 10 years walking the streets of the ghettos of Chicago helping disparate people take control of their lives (by getting jobs and religion, not government assistance) doesn't count?

Nooo. Never run anything. What have you done for your country besides sell your soul to Mesa Mr So Very Tired?

Really? Well, if it's any consolation, I stole it. (Rudy talking about Bidden in 2007) But I thought it was kinda funny.

1. Presumably, you meant "desperate", not "disparate" people. I suppose the case could be made for either. He's helped many "disparate" groups of people . . . indicted slum lords, shady "community groups", an unrepentant terrorist, and black liberation theology religious groups.

But I'm guessing you meant "desperate", although I'm puzzled as to why you would think the most left-leaning member of the US Senate is a champion of the poor by steering them to their own efforts rather than never-ending government aid. His record, his platform, and his speeches quite clearly state the opposite.

2. You like sacrifice for one's country? Like that's some sort of qualification for high office (given the current topic)? BO cannot even begin to come close to the personal sacrifices JM gave for his country. To even try is laughable. There are other qualifiers for high office, but to tout BO's "sacrifice" against REAL sacrifice is simply pathetic.

As for me, my conscience is clear. I've done (and do) plenty, but how would you verify my claims? I didn't "sell out" for Mesa . . . I worked hard and paid a butt-load in dues to almighty ALPA, including some special assessment checks paid without hesitation to striking Comair pilots. Then I parlayed that experience to something better.

May you do the same. If you ever reach a career position that literally takes you decades of hard work and sacrifice to get where you truly want to be, please send the fruits of your hard labor to the federal treasury on your own.

As for me, I'm less than thrilled at the prospect of working for decades to get where I am today only to have the federal government point a gun at my head and coerce me into "spreading my wealth around" by giving it to a bureaucrat in D.C. That's going to mean far less of it going back into my actual local community, where I'd rather put it.

Cheers. Nice Avatar, BTW. Probably one the the funniest things I've ever seen on youtube. She has great, uh, eyes.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I stand corrected, I was reading about the 1970 election of Salvador Allende, the Marxist, who was removed from office by Pinochet in 1973. Pinochet was anything but the example Rez was using, ie to say Chile was run by corporate entities. Pinochet was a military officer turned dictator. Thru the use of the military, Pinochet privatized state controlled industries. And so my point; to use Chile as an example of what could happen here because of the rich getting richer and corporations becoming all powerful is absurd.

Wrong again!

You failed to address the use of military to install economic polices. This is what happened in Chile. Milton Friedman the father of the Chicago boys trained many South American students in the ways of laizze faire captialism. When Pinochet took power it was his economic polices that he implemented that creates haves and have nots. The poverty increased. Pinochet used terror and torture to squach and efforts to oppose him.. including democracy itself....

Same thing in Iraq. The US sized control of that country and installed the corporatist agenda via Paul Bremer and the CPA. The goal was a flat tax and 100% of profits from Iraqi companies could leave the country. When out of work Iraqi men grew angry because contractors brought foreign labor the US responded by using torture to control the Iraqis. This was all for the corporate agenda.

Coalition Provisional Authority, Order 37: Tax Strategy for 2003

Paul Bremer, the head of the Coalition Provisional Authority, signed this order that instituted a 15% flat tax for individuals and corporations in Iraq.


Coalition Provisional Authority, Order 39: Foreign Investment

This destructive CPA order permitted foreign firms to own 100 percent of Iraqi assets, allowed investors to take 100 percent of the profits they made in Iraq out of the country without being taxed.
​

Get education. You've got about 13 days.

 

[Smacktard]

Wrong again!

Rez, I'll admit I am not an expert on Chile's history but you've used them as an example of a nation run by corporations. They [corporations] did not rise to power the same way liberals like to think American corporations are rising. Pinochet use the military to achieved this, big difference. I don't think it's a valid example of what can happen when corporate greed takes over. Same with Iraq.

You've avoided the context of my original response, ie, there are more examples, throughout the history of mankind, of governments, especially socialist and communist, that have abused and controlled the people. I'm sorry but Obama's policies are more closely aligned with those of socialism and communism. There are very few, if any, examples in history, of a country that, thru the maturization of capitalism, were controlled by the corporate entities.

Obama represents a significant departure in what this country was founded on, the strength of the individual. He is running on a campaign of wealth transfer via higher taxes. He wants to penalize the successful individuals that already carry the burden of excessive taxation. His policies lead us closer to the examples riddled throughout the history of mankind of governments and policies that have failed and abused the masses.

 

[Dan Roman]

Really? Well, if it's any consolation, I stole it. (Rudy talking about Bidden in 2007) But I thought it was kinda funny.

1. Presumably, you meant "desperate", not "disparate" people. I suppose the case could be made for either. He's helped many "disparate" groups of people . . . indicted slum lords, shady "community groups", an unrepentant terrorist, and black liberation theology religious groups.

But I'm guessing you meant "desperate", although I'm puzzled as to why you would think the most left-leaning member of the US Senate is a champion of the poor by steering them to their own efforts rather than never-ending government aid. His record, his platform, and his speeches quite clearly state the opposite.

2. You like sacrifice for one's country? Like that's some sort of qualification for high office (given the current topic)? BO cannot even begin to come close to the personal sacrifices JM gave for his country. To even try is laughable. There are other qualifiers for high office, but to tout BO's "sacrifice" against REAL sacrifice is simply pathetic.

As for me, my conscience is clear. I've done (and do) plenty, but how would you verify my claims? I didn't "sell out" for Mesa . . . I worked hard and paid a butt-load in dues to almighty ALPA, including some special assessment checks paid without hesitation to striking Comair pilots. Then I parlayed that experience to something better.

May you do the same. If you ever reach a career position that literally takes you decades of hard work and sacrifice to get where you truly want to be, please send the fruits of your hard labor to the federal treasury on your own.

As for me, I'm less than thrilled at the prospect of working for decades to get where I am today only to have the federal government point a gun at my head and coerce me into "spreading my wealth around" by giving it to a bureaucrat in D.C. That's going to mean far less of it going back into my actual local community, where I'd rather put it.

Cheers. Nice Avatar, BTW. Probably one the the funniest things I've ever seen on youtube. She has great, uh, eyes.

Soverytired

I've seen you post and, while I don't agree with all you say, it appears to me you raise some good points (I remember your posts regarding Go)
I think you quit Mesa and went to another regional.
So, my question is, if you're flying for a regional, why do you think you would not better under Obamas plan??

 

[Smacktard]

Soverytired

I've seen you post and, while I don't agree with all you say, it appears to me you raise some good points (I remember your posts regarding Go)
I think you quit Mesa and went to another regional.
So, my question is, if you're flying for a regional, why do you think you would not better under Obamas plan??

I'll take a stab at it. I don't think I'll be better because the high wage earners are the ones that create the jobs, pay the taxes and create the revenue that the rest of the system relies on. It's not a corrupt system, it's the way money works in any society with highly motivated people, mildly motivated people and unmotivated people, ie every society.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'll take a stab at it. I don't think I'll be better because the high wage earners are the ones that create the jobs, pay the taxes and create the revenue that the rest of the system relies on. It's not a corrupt system, it's the way money works in any society with highly motivated people, mildly motivated people and unmotivated people, ie every society.

The high wage earners are individuals like you and I that start small businesses.... That is the who arguement....

Reginonal pilots work for corporations who function as vendors to megaglobal corporations.... regional pilots have nothing to do with what McCain and Obama are debating WRT Joe the Plumber....

Less than two weeks to go.......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, I'll admit I am not an expert on Chile's history but you've used them as an example of a nation run by corporations. They [corporations] did not rise to power the same way liberals like to think American corporations are rising. Pinochet use the military to achieved this, big difference. I don't think it's a valid example of what can happen when corporate greed takes over. Same with Iraq.

You've avoided the context of my original response, ie, there are more examples, throughout the history of mankind, of governments, especially socialist and communist, that have abused and controlled the people. I'm sorry but Obama's policies are more closely aligned with those of socialism and communism. There are very few, if any, examples in history, of a country that, thru the maturization of capitalism, were controlled by the corporate entities.

Obama represents a significant departure in what this country was founded on, the strength of the individual. He is running on a campaign of wealth transfer via higher taxes. He wants to penalize the successful individuals that already carry the burden of excessive taxation. His policies lead us closer to the examples riddled throughout the history of mankind of governments and policies that have failed and abused the masses.

Respectfully your opinion is superficial. You need to provide links and references as I have done.

The Washington Consensus was a major departure from the intent of the Marshall Plan and Bretton Woods.

The IMF and World Bank in the 1980's change their philosophy from helping poor nations with injections of cash (not unlike our recent bailout) to a system of preconditions.

For example... the IMF would provide relief only if a country agree to privatize their infrastructure... the phone company, airlines, water/sewer....

This is not promoting democracy... this is promoting a corporatist agenda.

Again... I posit to you.... gov'ts use their position of strength to impose economic policy. Economic policy that favors the few at the expense of the many.


Nov 04th is coming soon... education is key.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Really? Well, if it's any consolation, I stole it. (Rudy talking about Bidden in 2007) But I thought it was kinda funny.

1. Presumably, you meant "desperate", not "disparate" people. I suppose the case could be made for either. He's helped many "disparate" groups of people . . . indicted slum lords, shady "community groups", an unrepentant terrorist, and black liberation theology religious groups.

Yes... desparate. Typo. But way to work in "terrorists, socialists and other anti-Americans oh my!"

But I'm guessing you meant "desperate", although I'm puzzled as to why you would think the most left-leaning member of the US Senate is a champion of the poor by steering them to their own efforts rather than never-ending government aid. His record, his platform, and his speeches quite clearly state the opposite.

2. You like sacrifice for one's country? Like that's some sort of qualification for high office (given the current topic)? BO cannot even begin to come close to the personal sacrifices JM gave for his country. To even try is laughable. There are other qualifiers for high office, but to tout BO's "sacrifice" against REAL sacrifice is simply pathetic.

Are you aware that McCain lost 5 airplanes and was disobeying orders when he got shot down and landed in the Hanoi Hilton. Yep, he's a Maverick all right. Quite the sacrifice. Especially the life of privilege he's led since he cheated on his wife and kids with Cindy, then left them, married her, and rode off into the sunset.

As for me, my conscience is clear. I've done (and do) plenty, but how would you verify my claims? I didn't "sell out" for Mesa . . . I worked hard and paid a butt-load in dues to almighty ALPA, including some special assessment checks paid without hesitation to striking Comair pilots. Then I parlayed that experience to something better.

May you do the same. If you ever reach a career position that literally takes you decades of hard work and sacrifice to get where you truly want to be, please send the fruits of your hard labor to the federal treasury on your own.

What makes you think I didn't spend decades of hard work and sacrifice to get where I am? Oh I know, I'm a girl and got hired just because I have tits. Of course!

As for me, I'm less than thrilled at the prospect of working for decades to get where I am today only to have the federal government point a gun at my head and coerce me into "spreading my wealth around" by giving it to a bureaucrat in D.C. That's going to mean far less of it going back into my actual local community, where I'd rather put it.

You make over $250,000 now? Wow!

Cheers. Nice Avatar, BTW. Probably one the the funniest things I've ever seen on youtube. She has great, uh, eyes.

I thought it was pretty funny. Too many people don't get the joke in how it pertains to aviation and my name (duh). Cheers for getting the joke. :beer:

 

[Mamma]

Wrong again!


Same thing in Iraq. The US sized control of that country and installed the corporatist agenda via Paul Bremer and the CPA. The goal was a flat tax and 100% of profits from Iraqi companies could leave the country. When out of work Iraqi men grew angry because contractors brought foreign labor the US responded by using torture to control the Iraqis. This was all for the corporate agenda.

Coalition Provisional Authority, Order 37: Tax Strategy for 2003

Paul Bremer, the head of the Coalition Provisional Authority, signed this order that instituted a 15% flat tax for individuals and corporations in Iraq.


Coalition Provisional Authority, Order 39: Foreign Investment

This destructive CPA order permitted foreign firms to own 100 percent of Iraqi assets, allowed investors to take 100 percent of the profits they made in Iraq out of the country without being taxed.
​

Get education. You've got about 13 days.

Rez,
I can't stand Paul Bremer. He was a complete failure and was one of Bush's biggest mistakes. He had ZERO experience in Middle Eastern culture and affairs. He had ZERO experience or talents in forming a post war government. The History Channel had a great documentary on how badly he screwed things up. Aside of that, I think your assumptions on the two above cases are wrong. First, the infrastructure in Iraq was in shambles and maybe a flat tax was a acceptable way to start bringing in some income for the formation of the Iraqi government. Taxes are how governments are funded. Order #39 in my opinion was a good deal for the country. The CPA was charged with bringing foreign investment into the country and providing jobs. It would have been a huge risk fo companies to invest in Iraq at the time. The best way to get that investment in was to offer the tax break on profits. People are still employed and the country moves forward. Get the companies in and get them working towards employing the largely unemployed population. Work on taxing the profits later. It seemed to me to be a good deal for Iraq. What is your problem with it?

 

[Dan Roman]

I'll take a stab at it. I don't think I'll be better because the high wage earners are the ones that create the jobs, pay the taxes and create the revenue that the rest of the system relies on. It's not a corrupt system, it's the way money works in any society with highly motivated people, mildly motivated people and unmotivated people, ie every society.

You mean like AIG or United or Enron or insert name of any number of the many U.S. corporations that have down sized and/or shipped jobs overseas in order to maximize shareholder profits at the expense of millions of American workers?

 

[777forever]

I'll take a stab at it. I don't think I'll be better because the high wage earners are the ones that create the jobs, pay the taxes and create the revenue that the rest of the system relies on. It's not a corrupt system, it's the way money works in any society with highly motivated people, mildly motivated people and unmotivated people, ie every society.

Hahaha, the rich "create jobs". That's a good one. Your reasoning is just a result of you being scammed by trickle down economics. The rich do not want to create jobs. They want to maximize profits.

If McCain takes over, he will wage war on the middle class and pretty much destroy it. There will only be rich and poor in the US. And when the economy gets to be so bad that know one can afford to spend, the rich "job creators" won't be able to create any jobs because there will be no one able to spend money on their product.

I mean, I can completely understand supporting McCain if that person was a multimillionaire and/or financially independent for life. But for middle class workers like airline pilots to support McCain, someone who has spit in the face of the profession, and vote against someone like Obama who is fighting for you and other hard working, motivated middle class americans is beyond me. People have the nerve to think Obama is fighting for unmotivated poor bums. No, Obama is fight for everyone on this board making less than 250k. Airline pay has been going down and Airline CEO pay has been going up.

But anyways it looks like most Americans have been paying attention to what happened the last four years and have come to the conclusion that we CANNOT afford 4 more years of George Bush type foolishness.

George Bush and John McCain are out of ideas, they are out of touch, and if you stand with me, in 17 days they'll be out of time-Obama.

 

[Smacktard]

Hahaha, the rich "create jobs". That's a good one. Your reasoning is just a result of you being scammed by trickle down economics. The rich do not want to create jobs. They want to maximize profits.

If McCain takes over, he will wage war on the middle class and pretty much destroy it. There will only be rich and poor in the US. And when the economy gets to be so bad that know one can afford to spend, the rich "job creators" won't be able to create any jobs because there will be no one able to spend money on their product.

I mean, I can completely understand supporting McCain if that person was a multimillionaire and/or financially independent for life. But for middle class workers like airline pilots to support McCain, someone who has spit in the face of the profession, and vote against someone like Obama who is fighting for you and other hard working, motivated middle class americans is beyond me. People have the nerve to think Obama is fighting for unmotivated poor bums. No, Obama is fight for everyone on this board making less than 250k. Airline pay has been going down and Airline CEO pay has been going up.

But anyways it looks like most Americans have been paying attention to what happened the last four years and have come to the conclusion that we CANNOT afford 4 more years of George Bush type foolishness.

George Bush and John McCain are out of ideas, they are out of touch, and if you stand with me, in 17 days they'll be out of time-Obama.

You mean the rich don't create jobs? Tell me then how the middle class guys like us do it, how many jobs have you created this week? How do the poor do it? Who employs the largest block of workers in this country? Do you know what the SPA considers small business? Look it up jack, you'll see who creates the VAST majority of jobs in this country and who is dead in the aim of your man. Stand with me? That's friggen hilarious if it wasn't so naive and pathetic. 'Stand with me', I've had my laugh for the day. Are you one of those entitlement generation guys that needs a star today?