Do Allegiant Air Pilot get to J/S

[Fubijaakr]

ualdriver,

He reminds me of the old saying:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. Its a waste of your time and it irritates the pig."

But, good luck in your attempt...

 

[ualdriver]

deleted

Sorry Fubijaakr I misread what you posted.

 

[chperplt]

Your non union group is doing quite a lot? OK.....Your narrowbody payrates are some of the lowest in the industry despite a recent attempt to improve them. You have little to no retirement. You have talented, experienced Captains at your airline working for wages less than VA's, but your guys have been around much longer. You remind me of how poorly my airline is doing and make a derogatory comment about my Union, but your non union group that is "doing quite a lot" for you can't even match the hourly rates of a bankrupt, legacy carrier with declining load factors and a YOY decrease in stock price (your analysis, not mine). Your non union group continues to do NOTHING on the very important legislative issues that will be coming up very soon and may affect ALL of us someday. From this backdrop of a seemingly mostly ineffective pilot group, you have the ordacity to talk trash?

Let me ask you, chperplt, if one took the above paragraph to heart which illustrates the many obvious failings of your "non union group" and then referred to your group as "cow droppings," what would you say?

ualdriver

Sure, we have a long way to go. We've been around a few years now and we're making money. As of the 2nd quarter, we've had 22 consecutive profitable quarters. Are we underpaid... Absolutely. Have we come a long way in the past few years and will we continue to increase our pay and benefits... absolutely.

The big difference between my non union group and your union group is that we're actually able to make change, and unlike your union, our change doesn't take years with a loss of jobs as the result.

While you sit there and talk smack about us because we get paid less than you and we haven't embraced the god that is ALPA, we continue to see yearly pay increases, premium pay for anything flown over 81 hours, some profit sharing, and oh... a profit.

I can't argue the retirement point... Our retirement sucks. We're working on that right now. Will it get better.... who knows.

Facts are facts... You're going to defend your dying union until the end and nothing we accomplish will meet your approval because we're just a bunch of non union industry killing w *************************.

I think you need to focus your energy on keeping your job first, then worry about my pay and retirement. If you haven't noticed, there's only 1 profitable major airline right now and you're not sitting around their paint job.

 

[citabriapilot]

So I can't back it up with facts, but I heard there was at least one resume in the pool that came from a UAL pilot wanting to go ahead and bail out and was looking at Allegiant for a future job.

FWIW...

P.S. How long did it take that little airline from Dallas that everyone hated to become "industry leading"? Hmmm, they aren't ALPA either...

 

[ualdriver]

The big difference between my non union group and your union group is that we're actually able to make change, and unlike your union, our change doesn't take years with a loss of jobs as the result.

Got it. In your world, pilots should accept substandard wages in order to subsidize the company's bottom line and then be happy when their airline is profitable and they have a job.

While you sit there and talk smack about us because we get paid less than you and we haven't embraced the god that is ALPA, we continue to see yearly pay increases, premium pay for anything flown over 81 hours, some profit sharing, and oh... a profit.

Excuse me, talk smack? Who referred to whose union as "cow droppngs?" And then who called out whom when said statement was made?

Further, when you agree to rates that are significantly less than everyone elses', you don't get to brag about "pay increases." If UAL pilots, for example, agreed to YOUR low pay rates, would we then get to brag about raises? Would a Skybus Captain making 60K/yr. get to brag to you about a 10% raise? See my point? Would a 60K/yr. Skybus A320 Captain get to brag about a profitable airline? Boasts about "pay raises" and a "profitable airline" kind of ring hollow coming from an Allegiant guy.

Facts are facts... You're going to defend your dying union until the end and nothing we accomplish will meet your approval because we're just a bunch of non union industry killing w *************************.

You guys will meet my approval when you stop making it harder for the rest of us to maintain our already too low wages. And for the record, it's not the fact that you're non union that bothers me. It's your compensation package that concerns me. I would love it if a non-union carrier came along and "showed up" any ALPA/union carrier with narrowbody equipment. I'll clue you in, though.....it won't be Allegiant. You guys are too passive and compliant.

I think you need to focus your energy on keeping your job first, then worry about my pay and retirement. If you haven't noticed, there's only 1 profitable major airline right now and you're not sitting around their paint job.

My focus is on my profession. It's not worth having a job if the best I can expect for my entire career are VA, Skybus, or Allegiant wages. It concerns me GREATLY when non union entities actively try to compete against me not by providing a superior product or service, but by playing the "who can agree to the lower payscale" game. I've already played that game in the early 00's. No one wins.

In conclusion in my last post to you as I need to heed Fuji's wise advice, it's amazing to me that you guys at low paying non union airlines continue to defend the ridiculous rates you fly for and then chastise those of us who are actually trying to raise the bar, including ALPA. The Skybus guys were the same exact way and I just don't get it. If you're satisfied with under $100/hr. MD-88 Captains with no retirement, that's fine I guess. Just don't come out on these forums critizing an entity that is actually trying to raise the bar and DEFEND the profession while you yourself are actively trying to pull it down. When you do BETTER, then you get to criticize. When that day comes, I'll listen.

 

[ualdriver]

So I can't back it up with facts, but I heard there was at least one resume in the pool that came from a UAL pilot wanting to go ahead and bail out and was looking at Allegiant for a future job.

FWIW...

P.S. How long did it take that little airline from Dallas that everyone hated to become "industry leading"? Hmmm, they aren't ALPA either...

You wouldn't have to back it up with facts. It wouldn't surprise me at all. We're furloughing, and I'm sure a job at Allegiant is a job of last resort for him until the industry shakes out. I doubt any legacy guy with recall rights is going to stay at Allegiant if he doesn't have to. No offense, but Allegiant isn't exactly a career airline to most qualified pilots unless the economy is in the crapper or they can't get hired anywhere else.

Also FWIW, the SWA pilot group never really fought for an industry leading contract and never had one through their own efforts. They are there by default and still remain there only because of some smart hedging. In fact, if you remember correctly, most pilots used SWA as a stepping stone to other carriers because their pay was significantly lower and SWA had a poor retirement package and poor work rules. All of the legacies have ex-SWA pilots in their ranks who willingly left for better deals at other airlines.

So if your argument is that's it's OK for Allegiant to underpay their pilots because of, "look at SWA!," I would argue that if Allegiant pilot rates become "industry leading" the same way SWA's did, this profession would definitely not be worth it anymore. But the upside for this forum would be that I wouldn't be here trying to do my very small part to defend the profession. I'd be on another professional forum complaining about whoever was undercutting me in my new career!

 

[Mach 80]

>>>>In fact, if you remember correctly, most pilots used SWA as a stepping stone to other carriers because their pay was significantly lower and SWA had a poor retirement package and poor work rules. <<<<

I remember correctly and it sure wasn't "most" SWA pilots using SWA as a stepping stone. The correct word would be a few (who now wish they had stayed at that "stepping stone"). I recall some discussion on the old ALPA Compuserve forum in which some SWA pilots (who had come to SWA via Braniff and other failed airlines and had ALPA rights to the forum) warning USAir, UAL, and other legacy pilots that their employer's debt to equity ratios combined with the mounting pyramid scheme and expensive retirement plans (pilots living longer putting more stress on the plans) would come home to roost one day. The SWA pilots told them that their employers were still learning to deal with and figure out airline deregulation. Work rules? The SWA pilots explained how their point to point flying allowed them to fly more in a day thus getting more days off in a month for the same hours of total flying instead of looking at magazines and eating yogurt while changing planes at the hub half your duty day. The legacy pilots nearly laughed the SWA pilots out of that forum and told them they were crazy. A UAL guy bragged about the quick upgrades at the UAL Shuttle and the USAir guys were high on Steve Wolf's "Carrier of Choice" plans and later on how Metro-Jet was going to run SWA out of BWI. The Delta guys never thought they'd see 'Delta' and 'bankrupt' in the same sentence.

It turned out those SWA pilots were exactly right. The smart ones, which were most of them, saw the future and knew the importance of debt to equity ratios stayed instead of chasing a 747 seat.

 

[Mach 80]

>>>>>>

 

[BEECH-SLAPPED]

You wouldn't have to back it up with facts. It wouldn't surprise me at all. We're furloughing, and I'm sure a job at Allegiant is a job of last resort for him until the industry shakes out. I doubt any legacy guy with recall rights is going to stay at Allegiant if he doesn't have to. No offense, but Allegiant isn't exactly a career airline to most qualified pilots unless the economy is in the crapper or they can't get hired anywhere else.

That's a pretty bold and arrogant statement. We have many AA guys here and when the "temporary" recalls started last year, do you know how many went back? ONE.

Back in the late 90's, UAL was a coveted job. I heard stories of how it would take YEARS to get called for an interview after submitting an application. So, why were people getting called DAYS after applying last summer? The demand just wasn't there. Few people saw the United of the 90's. Anyway, go ahead and blame us for your huge paycuts if it will make you feel better. However, I doubt that your management had our payscale in front of them when they decided to take 50% of your pay from you. Look at your balance sheet! The pilots could fly for free and you would still lose 100's of millions per quarter. It's not our fault, it's not your fault. It's mismanagement. Tilton shouldn't be running a lemonade stand let alone an airline.

 

[ualdriver]

I remember correctly and it sure wasn't "most" SWA pilots using SWA as a stepping stone.

Yes, I'll agree with you here. "Most" was probably a little broad. I think "many" is probably more appropriate.


The correct word would be a few (who now wish they had stayed at that "stepping stone"). I recall some discussion on the old ALPA Compuserve forum in which some SWA pilots (who had come to SWA via Braniff and other failed airlines and had ALPA rights to the forum) warning USAir, UAL, and other legacy pilots that their employer's debt to equity ratios combined with the mounting pyramid scheme and expensive retirement plans (pilots living longer putting more stress on the plans) would come home to roost one day.


I say baloney to that. Well baloney that any SWA pilot had "predictive powers," not that they wrote it.

There is no way ANYONE could have predicted in the early 90's what was going to happen in the 00's. There's always someone predicting "gloom and doom," and by default when "gloom and doom" does come as it inevitably does, they say, "there I told you so." The problem is that the "gloom and doomers" have predicted 10 of the last 5 "gloom and doom" time periods. For example, some day "peak oil" will come, and on that day there will be guys saying, "see I told you so." Unfortunately, the peak oil date is always "just a few years away....," every year and there is ALWAYS a different person saying, "this year it's going to happen." One day, somebody will be right- by luck, not foresight.

If all one had to do is look at "debt to equity ratios," to determine if a company will succeed or fail, there would be MANY unemployed CFA's right now. If any pilots thinks they can look at that one variable or "pyramid schemes" or whatever and predict the future of an airline, I say GET OUT OF THE AIRLINE BUSINESS because you have an ability that no one on Wall Street has- the ability to predict the failure of airlines. Certainly these smart SWA pilots, armed with this absolute knowledge had the appropriate financial positions in place to back this knowledge? I assume none of them are flying for a living, correct? They must have made millions upon millions knowing that airlines like UAL were certain to fail?


Further, UAL pensions were not put "under stress" because pilots were living longer. That's not why ours failed at all. It wasn't even in the picture. I haven't a clue where anyone got that from. In fact, I don't think there were any legacy pensions under duress due to pilots living unexpectedly longer lives, if that statistic is even true nor do I believe that pensioners who live longer lives would necessarily kill a pension. I guess theoretically it's possible, but a bit of a stretch.

 

[Turtle21]

Absolutely!

I don't want any CRJ/EMB-flying turds on my JS either.

As much as I don't like to see my customers and routes being flown by CRJ/EMB "turds".. it was ALPA who established (exploited) those "turds"... and now that USAir is no longer ALPA you might do an ALPA head count and find that the CRJ/EMB little "turds" might outnumber the big "turds". Just saying...

 

[Turtle21]

Allegiant has approximately 250 pilots. Two of those are scabs. Scab percentage: 0.8%.

I don't think you'll find that low of a percentage at even the most militant of unionized airlines.

USAir East.. zero scabs. 0.0%. But then we also believe in DOH. So obviously unionism isn't about being popular.

 

[ualdriver]

That's a pretty bold and arrogant statement. We have many AA guys here and when the "temporary" recalls started last year, do you know how many went back? ONE.

It wasn't to meant to be arrogant. The poster wrote that a UAL pilot was looking to leave UAL to go to Allegiant. The implication of this statement was that Allegiant was a much better place to be than UAL despite its low pilot compensation package. I beg to differ.

My argument is that it is unlikely, in normal economic situations when all airlines are hiring, that a pilot would choose Allegiant Airlines as a career airline unless there was no other choice for that pilot. I didn't say it to be arrogant as I don't feel I'm anyone special just because I work at UAL. I think I'm just stating the obvious.

Let's say for example that in 2009 ALL airlines started hiring again and I put 100 talented, qualified, and knowledgeable RJ Captains in a room. Let's say a representative from Allegiant, UAL, NWA, DAL, AMR, and Continental walked into the room and offered them a job at the airline of their choice. What % of the pilots do you think would choose Allegiant over one of the others? I would bet that less than 5 would choose Allegiant, and it's very likely not one would choose Allegiant. I'm not saying that to be arrogant. I just think that's what would happen. I don't think many would choose UAL, either, if that makes you feel better. I know I wouldn't.

Back in the late 90's, UAL was a coveted job. I heard stories of how it would take YEARS to get called for an interview after submitting an application. So, why were people getting called DAYS after applying last summer?

UAL was one of many coveted jobs. It didn't take everyone years to get an interview, just the less qualified ones. Some guys got called sooner than others. I'm sure some got called right away, and some waited years. The same thing was probably true in 2007.

The demand just wasn't there.

I wish that was true, but it wasn't. I wish it was true because if it had been true, then UAL management would have had to come to UA ALPA to raise pay rates in order to attract and retain qualified candidates. Unfortunately, UA had no problem attracting very qualified and talented pilots during this last hiring cycle.


Few people saw the United of the 90's. Anyway, go ahead and blame us for your huge paycuts if it will make you feel better.

It doesn't make me feel better. However, what would make me feel better if we collectively as a large pilot group would stop accepting substandard wages. Further, it would make me feel better if guys who did accept such rates would stop trying to 1) defend that action and 2) try to belittle an organization that is actually trying to raise those rates while certain pilot groups do NOTHING. Please go back and read where I entered the debate and the reason why I did and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

 

[Ameriagle]

It wasn't to meant to be arrogant. The poster wrote that a UAL pilot was looking to leave UAL to go to Allegiant. The implication of this statement was that Allegiant was a much better place to be than UAL despite its low pilot compensation package. I beg to differ.

My argument is that it is unlikely, in normal economic situations when all airlines are hiring, that a pilot would choose Allegiant Airlines as a career airline unless there was no other choice for that pilot. I didn't say it to be arrogant as I don't feel I'm anyone special just because I work at UAL. I think I'm just stating the obvious.

Let's say for example that in 2009 ALL airlines started hiring again and I put 100 talented, qualified, and knowledgeable RJ Captains in a room. Let's say a representative from Allegiant, UAL, NWA, DAL, AMR, and Continental walked into the room and offered them a job at the airline of their choice. What % of the pilots do you think would choose Allegiant over one of the others? I would bet that less than 5 would choose Allegiant, and it's very likely not one would choose Allegiant. I'm not saying that to be arrogant. I just think that's what would happen. I don't think many would choose UAL, either, if that makes you feel better. I know I wouldn't.

Back in the late 90's, UAL was a coveted job. I heard stories of how it would take YEARS to get called for an interview after submitting an application. So, why were people getting called DAYS after applying last summer?

UAL was one of many coveted jobs. It didn't take everyone years to get an interview, just the less qualified ones. Some guys got called sooner than others. I'm sure some got called right away, and some waited years. The same thing was probably true in 2007.

The demand just wasn't there.

I wish that was true, but it wasn't. I wish it was true because if it had been true, then UAL management would have had to come to UA ALPA to raise pay rates in order to attract and retain qualified candidates. Unfortunately, UA had no problem attracting very qualified and talented pilots during this last hiring cycle.


Few people saw the United of the 90's. Anyway, go ahead and blame us for your huge paycuts if it will make you feel better.

It doesn't make me feel better. However, what would make me feel better if we collectively as a large pilot group would stop accepting substandard wages. Further, it would make me feel better if guys who did accept such rates would stop trying to 1) defend that action and 2) try to belittle an organization that is actually trying to raise those rates while certain pilot groups do NOTHING. Please go back and read where I entered the debate and the reason why I did and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

UALPA has been propping up a dying airline for longer than Allegiant has been existence, so to be lectured by a United pilot is kinda funny!l

 

[Ameriagle]

"Let's say for example that in 2009 ALL airlines started hiring again and I put 100 talented, qualified, and knowledgeable RJ Captains in a room. Let's say a representative from Allegiant, UAL, NWA, DAL, AMR, and Continental walked into the room and offered them a job at the airline of their choice. What % of the pilots do you think would choose Allegiant over one of the others? I would bet that less than 5 would choose Allegiant, and it's very likely not one would choose Allegiant. I'm not saying that to be arrogant. I just think that's what would happen. I don't think many would choose UAL, either, if that makes you feel better. I know I wouldn't.

We all know that each and every one of your RJ Captain's would pay for a 737 Type and go to work for Southwest.