DL/NWA Seniority List Integration Arbitration starts TODAY...article

[General Lee]

AP
Ahead of the Bell: Delta-NWA pilot seniority
Thursday October 2, 6:04 am ET Arbitration hearings begin over how to integrate Delta-NWA pilot seniority lists
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A three-member arbitration panel was to begin closed-door hearings to determine how to integrate the pilot seniority lists at Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. after the two carriers combine.

Thursday's session was being held at a hotel near Los Angeles. It was to last until Sunday. The hearings were to continue Oct. 20-24 in Washington and then return to Los Angeles from Nov. 15-17.
Union officials said the hearings would be closed to the news media.

The two sides have been in a stalemate over how to integrate their seniority lists, though they have approved a joint collective bargaining agreement covering roughly 12,000 pilots.
Pilots value their seniority because it determines their schedule, the aircraft they fly and layoff protection.

The panel -- California labor attorney Fredric Horowitz, attorney Dana Eischen and veteran arbitrator Richard Bloch -- was being called on to resolve the seniority issue.

A written decision, which would be binding, is due by Nov. 20.

Horowitz and Bloch also served on an arbitration panel selected in 2006 to determine whether Delta, which was under bankruptcy protection at the time, could void its pilots' contract and impose pay and benefit cuts unilaterally. Delta's pilots union, which had threatened to strike, eventually agreed to concessions, and that panel never issued a ruling.

Those hearings, unlike the ones that begin Thursday, were open to the media. Atlanta-based Delta's stock-swap deal to acquire Eagan, Minn.-based Northwest, announced April 14, was given the go-ahead by shareholders of both companies on Sept. 25. It is still subject to regulatory approval. Delta is hoping to close the deal by the end of the year


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

A written decision, which would be binding, is due by Nov. 20.

Standing by to watch the train wreck!

AA767AV8TOR

 

[General Lee]

Standing by to watch the train wreck!

AA767AV8TOR

I think they got that wrong, I think it will be done now on Nov 21st, rather than the 20th. Also, unlike USAir, we have a joint contract now prior to the arbitration, and yes, I think some people will be unhappy, except the number 1 seniority pilot. I don't expect DOH or any major changes, though---I think it will be a combo of relative seniority and relative position. We shall see.




Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Occam's Razor]

Standing by to watch the train wreck!

AA767AV8TOR

I wouldn't start taunting the gators 'til you're on the OTHER side of the swamp...Section VI Boy!

You're one more menstrual cramp from choking down another crappy deal.

 

[INIT REF]

Great. Richard (Dick) "Cock" Bloch. The same guy who ensured my 4 1/2 year vacation from DAL would stick.

Standing by for a butt reaming, arbitration-style.

 

[ironspud]

Bloch? You are so screwed.

 

[NuGuy]

I think they got that wrong, I think it will be done now on Nov 21st, rather than the 20th. Also, unlike USAir, we have a joint contract now prior to the arbitration, and yes, I think some people will be unhappy, except the number 1 seniority pilot. I don't expect DOH or any major changes, though---I think it will be a combo of relative seniority and relative position. We shall see.

You guys keep assuming it's going to be a "one size fits all" deal.

Nu

 

[gutshotdraw]

At least ya'll will have THREE arbitrators to whine about instead of only one.

 

[General Lee]

You guys keep assuming it's going to be a "one size fits all" deal.

Nu

You guys think a "dynaminc list" will stick. No way. You have retirements coming up, and we do 5 years after that. It will all work out eventually.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Bloch? You are so screwed.

He was our first choice, and we have dealt with him before. Dalpa got to choose 2 out of the 3 arbitrators. We'll see....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FBN0223]

DOH with protections for DL guys is the only fair solution.

Personally, if I have to start giving up seniority and bidding after someone who should be way junior to me, that will be sign that it's time to move on. Lots of cool things to do in this world that don't involve flying airplanes.

 

[General Lee]

DOH with protections for DL guys is the only fair solution.

Personally, if I have to start giving up seniority and bidding after someone who should be way junior to me that will be sign that it's time to move on. Lots of cool things to do in this world that don't involve flying airplanes.

DOH has never really happened in a merger, except when UAL took some Pan Am guys for the Asian ops they bought (primarily to keep those senior Pan Am pilots on those routes). Other than that, there never has been a DOH. What really is fair is Relative Seniority, which keeps you right about where you are now, in the new company. Throw in a little Relative position for certain planes, and a look at salaries, and it could look good. NWA guys may object to some of that, but they are keeping their frozen pensions (the top half anyway I guess), and they will be losing more planes before we will.

Regardless, welcome aboard.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FBN0223]

What really is fair is Relative Seniority, which keeps you right about where you are now, in the new company.


Bye Bye--General Lee

It's not all only about where we at NWA are now but where we would have finished. In my case, it was in the top 5%. Doubt that would be the case if we start straying too far away from DOH.

Welcome onboard the "New" Delta to you as well.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Who gives a ******************** how the integration goes. Remember, the NW guys don't want any of those DL bases and don't even conisder the 767 "premium" wide body flying.

 

[Superpilot92]

Who gives a ******************** how the integration goes. Remember, the NW guys don't want any of those DL bases and don't even conisder the 767 "premium" wide body flying.

Keep up the useful contributions you add to these discussions, they are very insightful.

 

[General Lee]

It's not all only about where we at NWA are now but where we would have finished. In my case, it was in the top 5%. Doubt that would be the case if we start straying too far away from DOH.

Welcome onboard the "New" Delta to you as well.

I know what you are saying, but the only guy that will be happy will be the number 1 guy. We all have and had different expectations, and we also are not totally equal in certain areas, like pensions and super senior pilots. We lost a bunch of Captains when we lost our pensions, and you kept yours but lost some work rules. You will have a bunch of retirements coming up here, and we would have too about 5 years after yours. How do you give you credit for your upcoming retirements, and also allow us to get credit for ours that were not that far behind. You can't count your retirement chunk and dismiss ours.

As far as relative seniority, you pretty much get to do what you were doing anyway. If you are at 50%, then you should be close to that in a merged company. There could be some tweaking though here and there, for aircraft size (hey, those 744s are darn big), salary (a 12 year DC9 FO makes a lot less per hour than a 4th year 767FO for us), etc. I am sure your NWA MEC will go for everything they can, and so will ours. In the end, it will look close to relative seniority I bet.

One more thing, this below came from your NWA MEC bulletin today (?) concerning pay differences between DL and NWA once the DCC and joint contract kick in.

Pay Rumor: NWA vs. DAL
It has been brought to the attention of the NWA MEC leadership that some pilots believe that when we go
to the DAL pay and work rules, pay raises will be a wash. The foundation of this belief is that we will get a
pay raise followed by less working hours. This is a rumor.
This incorrect statement computes pay based on our NWA monthly max to DAL Average Line Value
(ALV), as if ALV was the max for the month. This is not the case. The ALV is the average. To get the max
for the month, 7.5 hours would need to be added to the monthly ALV (see chart below). In addition, last
year the average pay for DAL pilots was round 84 hours per month; making it possible to get more hours of
pay under the DAL system vs. the current NWA pay system.
NWA DAL
Monthly MAX 90 hrs. Monthly MAX 90 hrs.
Monthly Range
(max -12 hrs)
90-78 hrs. Monthly Range
(max -12 hrs)
90-78 hrs.
Monthly MIN. 75 hrs. Monthly MIN. 75 hrs.
Monthly Range
(min -12 hrs)
75-63 hrs. Monthly Range
(min -12 hrs)
75-63 hrs.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PuffDriver]

Keep up the useful contributions you add to these discussions, they are very insightful.

You guys brought it up, one of those "you made your bed" things.

 

[NuGuy]

Pay Rumor: NWA vs. DAL
It has been brought to the attention of the NWA MEC leadership that some pilots believe that when we go
to the DAL pay and work rules, pay raises will be a wash. The foundation of this belief is that we will get a
pay raise followed by less working hours. This is a rumor.
This incorrect statement computes pay based on our NWA monthly max to DAL Average Line Value
(ALV), as if ALV was the max for the month. This is not the case. The ALV is the average. To get the max
for the month, 7.5 hours would need to be added to the monthly ALV (see chart below). In addition, last
year the average pay for DAL pilots was round 84 hours per month; making it possible to get more hours of
pay under the DAL system vs. the current NWA pay system.
NWA DAL
Monthly MAX 90 hrs. Monthly MAX 90 hrs.
Monthly Range
(max -12 hrs)
90-78 hrs. Monthly Range
(max -12 hrs)
90-78 hrs.
Monthly MIN. 75 hrs. Monthly MIN. 75 hrs.
Monthly Range
(min -12 hrs)
75-63 hrs. Monthly Range
(min -12 hrs)
75-63 hrs.

And this came out the VERY next day:

Yesterday’s Hotline contained a piece comparing flight hours under the Northwest contract to the Delta contract. Unfortunately,
this item contained factual inaccuracies and has been pulled from the Hotline. We will provide our pilots with information on this subject in the future.

On another topic, you assume that the same integration method will be used on the entire pilot group. This may be unfounded. The pilots at the top of the list may be treated in an entirely different manner than those in other "segments".

You heard it here first.

Nu

 

[Turtle21]

...yes, I think some people will be unhappy, except the number 1 seniority pilot. ...

Even he won't be happy when he flys.. because his FO will be complaining the whole time about how he was cheated in seniority.:laugh:

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Keep up the useful contributions you add to these discussions, they are very insightful.

That's pretty interesting considering the NW side is the side that keeps bringing it up!