Vmc Demo - With or without flaps -

[Amish RakeFight]

When I trained for my MEL in a Seminole, we performed Vmc demos in the clean configuration with no rudder blocking.

In a sense, the execution and recovery felt like a power-on stall maneuver. Recovery usually happened at the stall; not the loss of directional control. This of course is dependant upon atmospheric conditions, altitude and AC type.

 

[avbug]

Does not reaching published VMC speed count as a successful demo?

No, absolutely not. The purpose of the Vmc demonstration is NOT to observe the red line on the airspeed indicator, and it's not to stall the airplane. that's what stall practice is for. A Vmc demonstration is to show only assymetrical handling conditions on one engine...and specifically to show the point of departure.

This may not be achievable prior to the stall, or it may occur higher..but it's up to the instructor to block the rudder properly in order to positively show the student that a power reduction is required at the point of departure. It's important that the student recognize the change in aircraft handling charactor.

There is no value in simply seeing the published Vmc airspeed and recovering, because nothing has been demonstrated. Let's face it, you can fly the airplane considerably slower than that...big deal. Let's also face it...the actual speed at which the airplane can no longer maintain directional control has NO relationship to the published certification Vmc value. The student should be taught that loss of directional control can occur at a higher speed, a lower speed, and both the recovery techniques in the event a departure is encountered, and the proper training and procedures to prevent it from happening in the first place.

 

[brokeflyer]

Does not reaching published VMC speed count as a successful demo?

demo yes....VMC spin and die? NO.

VMC demo for traingin is exactly that a DEMONSTRATION.

You dont actully go and do a VMC roll over.....cause then you'd be dead.


block the rudder

 

[doog]

So is the answer yes or no? For the demonstration I was taught to start the recovery at loss of directional control (rudder at the stop), stall indication (horn or buffet) or reaching published vmc speed. I do agree with what avbug said... on my checkride I recovered at published VMC.

 

[brokeflyer]

So is the answer yes or no? For the demonstration I was taught to start the recovery at loss of directional control (rudder at the stop), stall indication (horn or buffet) or reaching published vmc speed. I do agree with what avbug said... on my checkride I recovered at published VMC.

your lucky to be alive then. your instrcutor shoulda been blocking that rudder so that you "lose" control safely.

 

[doog]

your lucky to be alive then. your instrcutor shoulda been blocking that rudder so that you "lose" control safely.

Are you saying that flying down to published VMC is recklessly dangerous even if it happens before the other indications? My instructor blocked the rudder and so sometimes loss of rudder authority came first, but on my checkride I hit published VMC with enough rudder so I recovered. Here is another instructor that teaches it this way:

http://www.dodgenaircraft.com/TrainingVmcDemo.htm

I'm not arguing in my limitted experience that this is how it should be taught, it's just a little unclear.

 

[nosehair]

VMC demo for traingin is exactly that a DEMONSTRATION.

The word 'demonstration' is a poor word to be used in flight training, or at least in the context of training objectives.

In this context, it has to mean that the student multi-engine pilot must demonstrate proficiency in recognizing and recovering from an engine out at the Vmc of the airplane.

Kinda like a student single-engine pilot must demonstrate the ability to stall, or land, or execute a forced landing in a single; you know, the stuff he needs to survive a flight.

We don't demonstrate a landing to a student and expect he will be able to do it; he must practice.

The multi-engine student must practice Vmc recognition and recovery just the same as a beginning single-engine student must practice real stalls, and landings, and forced landings. These are fundamental.

The Vmc demo is a fundamental practice maneuver to get the feel of aircracft directional control in the Vmc region - like slow flight is to stalls.

Blocking the rudder is a good initial training exercise, like doing slow flight as a lead-in to stalls.

But, eventually, the pilot must experience and learn to control the airplane as he approaces real Vmc and recognizes and recovers a loss of directional control.

In training aircraft, where Vmc is at or below stall, rudder blocking is good to show, and practice, the loss of directional control of larger/faster airplanes since the ME rating is not make/model specific.

However, the student multi-engine pilot should also take these airplanes to the stall indications without rudder blocking, too.

The bottom line is that the ME student should be trained and have demonstrated proficiency in recognizing and recovering from the Vmc area in actual practice.

This is not dangerous stuff. The airplane is certified to do it. It's like stalls and spins in light single-engine trainers. If you're uncomfortable approaching Vmc, reaching full rudder travel, losing the heading and retarding the throttle, get some more training. Really.

 

[brokeflyer]

lol go ahead and do it however you want....the plane will win someday. I knew 2 very experienced pilots out doing training in a 414 doing exactly what your doing. They didnt make it back. VMC and a stall can happen very quickly. They rolled over and spun in.

Teaching this is required, however, i ALWAYS blocked the rudder. Reaching the published speed is not the objective, you can make an speed you want to. if the published speed is 90....then say "today its gonna be 100kts OR loss of directional control, which ever occours first."

any other way is just asking for trouble. Just my method of doing it. Whenever I used to give ME checkrides I did the same and I briefed the applicant as such. most were familiar with that because that is how their instructot taught them.

Do it however you want, just don't do it over my house.

 

[gulfstream2345]

Blocking the rudder should be done for the demo only. When the applicant goes for the ride they must be able to show knowledge of VMC and demonstrate the recovery from VMC without the examiner/inspector blocking the rudder. As a check airman, CFI, examiner, FAA Inspector, I never blocked the rudder for a demo or checkride. I have given many hundreds of checks in all types of aircraft and have never had a problem. That doesn't mean it can't happen obviously but you have to let the applicant do the task. Of course I had to recover a G3 from unintended inverted flight with an applicant but that is another story.

 

[doog]

Blocking the rudder should be done for the demo only. When the applicant goes for the ride they must be able to show knowledge of VMC and demonstrate the recovery from VMC without the examiner/inspector blocking the rudder.

Well that's consistent with my experience. Did you expect applicants to recover at published VMC if it came before the other indications?