Vmc Demo - With or without flaps -

[doog]

your lucky to be alive then. your instrcutor shoulda been blocking that rudder so that you "lose" control safely.

Are you saying that flying down to published VMC is recklessly dangerous even if it happens before the other indications? My instructor blocked the rudder and so sometimes loss of rudder authority came first, but on my checkride I hit published VMC with enough rudder so I recovered. Here is another instructor that teaches it this way:

http://www.dodgenaircraft.com/TrainingVmcDemo.htm

I'm not arguing in my limitted experience that this is how it should be taught, it's just a little unclear.

 

[nosehair]

VMC demo for traingin is exactly that a DEMONSTRATION.

The word 'demonstration' is a poor word to be used in flight training, or at least in the context of training objectives.

In this context, it has to mean that the student multi-engine pilot must demonstrate proficiency in recognizing and recovering from an engine out at the Vmc of the airplane.

Kinda like a student single-engine pilot must demonstrate the ability to stall, or land, or execute a forced landing in a single; you know, the stuff he needs to survive a flight.

We don't demonstrate a landing to a student and expect he will be able to do it; he must practice.

The multi-engine student must practice Vmc recognition and recovery just the same as a beginning single-engine student must practice real stalls, and landings, and forced landings. These are fundamental.

The Vmc demo is a fundamental practice maneuver to get the feel of aircracft directional control in the Vmc region - like slow flight is to stalls.

Blocking the rudder is a good initial training exercise, like doing slow flight as a lead-in to stalls.

But, eventually, the pilot must experience and learn to control the airplane as he approaces real Vmc and recognizes and recovers a loss of directional control.

In training aircraft, where Vmc is at or below stall, rudder blocking is good to show, and practice, the loss of directional control of larger/faster airplanes since the ME rating is not make/model specific.

However, the student multi-engine pilot should also take these airplanes to the stall indications without rudder blocking, too.

The bottom line is that the ME student should be trained and have demonstrated proficiency in recognizing and recovering from the Vmc area in actual practice.

This is not dangerous stuff. The airplane is certified to do it. It's like stalls and spins in light single-engine trainers. If you're uncomfortable approaching Vmc, reaching full rudder travel, losing the heading and retarding the throttle, get some more training. Really.

 

[brokeflyer]

lol go ahead and do it however you want....the plane will win someday. I knew 2 very experienced pilots out doing training in a 414 doing exactly what your doing. They didnt make it back. VMC and a stall can happen very quickly. They rolled over and spun in.

Teaching this is required, however, i ALWAYS blocked the rudder. Reaching the published speed is not the objective, you can make an speed you want to. if the published speed is 90....then say "today its gonna be 100kts OR loss of directional control, which ever occours first."

any other way is just asking for trouble. Just my method of doing it. Whenever I used to give ME checkrides I did the same and I briefed the applicant as such. most were familiar with that because that is how their instructot taught them.

Do it however you want, just don't do it over my house.

 

[gulfstream2345]

Blocking the rudder should be done for the demo only. When the applicant goes for the ride they must be able to show knowledge of VMC and demonstrate the recovery from VMC without the examiner/inspector blocking the rudder. As a check airman, CFI, examiner, FAA Inspector, I never blocked the rudder for a demo or checkride. I have given many hundreds of checks in all types of aircraft and have never had a problem. That doesn't mean it can't happen obviously but you have to let the applicant do the task. Of course I had to recover a G3 from unintended inverted flight with an applicant but that is another story.

 

[doog]

Blocking the rudder should be done for the demo only. When the applicant goes for the ride they must be able to show knowledge of VMC and demonstrate the recovery from VMC without the examiner/inspector blocking the rudder.

Well that's consistent with my experience. Did you expect applicants to recover at published VMC if it came before the other indications?

 

[avbug]

As a check airman, CFI, examiner, FAA Inspector, I never blocked the rudder for a demo or checkride.

Blocking the rudder isn't for the student's benefit; it's for yours. It's a safety issue. The student really ought to be able to do partial panel at night in turbulence, but one need not wait for those conditions to put them through training or a practical test, and one need not let the student go to a full Vmc departure without any reserve rudder available, either.

Blocking the rudder is a safety technique, and a valid one. It robs the student of nothing, and it can be used to enhance training. In an airplane that won't reach a departure until very close to or below a stall, blocking a rudder ensures a departure or signs thereof at a higher speed, while still maintaining safety. It ensures the student gets to see, feel, and demonstrate the loss of directional control as well as the recovery in a positive and safe manner.

It's prudent and proper.

 

[nosehair]

Blocking the rudder is a safety technique, and a valid one. It robs the student of nothing

I am so surprised to see you take that side.

I am in disagreement with you and anyone qwho believes this tecnique 'robs the student of nothing'.

Yes, it is a valid and safe technique to begin with, and to show the loss of heading control that would occur in a faster Vmc airplane, but...the airplane's handling characteristics are unique approaching stall/Vmc in most of today's light twin trainers, and every pilot student must 'handle' the airplane in that condition.

You do know that the muti-engine PTS does not allow blocking the rudder, don't you?

It used to be on the PTS, matter of fact, it was added back when the current twins with counter-rotating props and Vmc/stall the same came on the scene.

But they took it off a few years ago.