Learjet 85

[LJ45]

All new fully composite , including wings.. ??? Wow, no thanks for me.

What say you, can Learjet/Bombardier pull this off?

Will the 45 wing-rock be fixed before the LJ-85 is out?

Is this the way to go?

 

[SabreFlyR]

All new fully composite , including wings.. ??? Wow, no thanks for me.

What say you, can Learjet/Bombardier pull this off?

Will the 45 wing-rock be fixed before the LJ-85 is out?

Is this the way to go?

I think you're going to see more new all composite aircraft in the future. Take a look at Spectrum, the larger of their two planes is about the size of a LJ40 but with a somewhat roomier cabin. The airplane is all composite with an epmty weight around 5000 lbs.
Also look at Grob, who is also involved with Bombardier on the new Lear 85, I believe they are showing Bombardier how to do it as I remember reading. They have the Spn coming out late this year and it's composite.

 

[Tgaug6300]

Looks like Bombardier parted ways with Grob. But they are still committed to the program. I wonder how long that will set the program back?

 

[LJ45]

Looks like Bombardier parted ways with Grob. But they are still committed to the program. I wonder how long that will set the program back?

This is a good reason and way for Bombarder to gracefully back out of the notion of all composite. I still think it is a big mistake for Bombardier to go all composite.

Let Boeing perfect it and get back to me in several years on how they did.

 

[willNOTfly4free]

From AIN:

Bombardier Drops Grob from Learjet 85 Program

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bombardier has terminated its contract with Grob Aerospace AG of Switzerland to develop the composite structure for the Learjet 85. Grob’s German affiliate filed for insolvency on August 18. In a statement released this afternoon, Steve Ridolfi, president of Bombardier Business Aircraft, said, “Given the uncertainty surrounding Grob’s insolvency, Learjet has decided to terminate its agreement with Grob Aerospace, effective Sept. 17, 2008. Bombardier Aerospace is taking decisive action and this decision reflects our strong commitment to both the Learjet 85 aircraft program and to a growing number of leading business jet customers worldwide who have selected this exciting, all-new midsize business jet.” [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Grob Aerospace GmbH filed for insolvency in Germany on August 18 after its main source of capital withdrew financial support for Grob’s new SPn light business jet program. Grob CEO Niall Olver said that the undisclosed investor had pulled out due to delays in the SPn certification program and resulting increases in the amount of money required to get the aircraft into service. Bombardier said it is assuming complete responsibility for the detail design and manufacturing of all primary and secondary structures for the eight-passenger Learjet 85. Grob issued the following statement reacting to Bombardier’s decision, “While this outcome is regrettable, it is a matter of fact that Bombardier needs to take whatever measures it deems necessary to protect the timeline of the program. The parties have agreed to cooperate and to jointly remove the Bombardier program from the Tussenhausen-Mattsies facility.”[/FONT]

 

[NCherches]

Composite technology is awesome... I hope they can get it figured out as it would save a ton in weight, parts, and maintenance.

 

[400A]

I think I would stretch the 60 a little and put the 45 Wing under it. I have heard they explored that Idea but had some issues with the tail being "Maxed out"

I thought on paper the 85 is awful close to competing with the CL-300.

There are still issues with composite aircraft that have yet to be figured out. One is moisture. I flew the Starship and the Premier and they both had moisture issues. Still having trouble with paint adhesion as well.

 

[willNOTfly4free]

I thought on paper the 85 is awful close to competing with the CL-300.

B&CA had a write up on the Learjet 85 a couple of months ago. The 85 appears to be much closer to the CL300 in terms of size, performance, and price when compared to the 60XR.

The article also alluded to the Learjet 85 eventually replacing the 60XR.

 

[LJ45]

I think I would stretch the 60 a little and put the 45 Wing under it. I have heard they explored that Idea but had some issues with the tail being "Maxed out"

I thought on paper the 85 is awful close to competing with the CL-300.

There are still issues with composite aircraft that have yet to be figured out. One is moisture. I flew the Starship and the Premier and they both had moisture issues. Still having trouble with paint adhesion as well.

how about just a bigger (fatter) fuselage on the 45. With the same systems, bigger fuselage tank, -50 or -60 engines and maybe same type rating. I guess that is too simple of an Idea.
:beer:

 

[epic!]

why is the lear 85s' website so cheesy?

 

[Hugh Johnson]

The Starship was all composite. Because the FAA wasn't comfortable with the technology, the forced Beech to beef the wing up with so much composite structure, the lost payload to the point it wasn't competitive anymore. The AASI Jetcruzer used a composite fuselage with standard metal wings to bypass this problem.

 

[400A]

The Starship was all composite. Because the FAA wasn't comfortable with the technology, the forced Beech to beef the wing up with so much composite structure, the lost payload to the point it wasn't competitive anymore. The AASI Jetcruzer used a composite fuselage with standard metal wings to bypass this problem.

Not just that. There were two major weight weight gains on the Starship. The FAA decided that the airplane had to have flaps. It was not originally designed with Flaps. When they added the flaps, then CG got out of control. This is when it grew the moving forward wing with interconnections to the flaps. From what I was told in school, the biggest weight gain came then the composite 4 blade props started shattering when Ice coming off the wing hit them. The change from composite 4 blades to the huge metal 5 blades that ended up with was huge.

They also said the composite wing could not leak fuel, but I personally had one leak.

Premier has metal wings as well.

 

[NCherches]

I heard that the STAR was also going to be under 12,500 until the FAA got ahold of it.

I know those prop blades had to be replaced due to rocks being thrown up as well and they were not cheap if you could even get one w/o delay!

Still the coolest plane I have ever seen or flown

 

[400A]

I heard that the STAR was also going to be under 12,500 until the FAA got ahold of it.

I know those prop blades had to be replaced due to rocks being thrown up as well and they were not cheap if you could even get one w/o delay!

Still the coolest plane I have ever seen or flown

We did not have as much trouble from rocks as we did corrosion at the Base of the blade from the exhaust.

 

[LJ45]

Composite technology is awesome... I hope they can get it figured out as it would save a ton in weight, parts, and maintenance.

When has that been proven on a corporate jet? and on what airplane?

 

[400A]

When has that been proven on a corporate jet? and on what airplane?

Premier. Hawker 4000.......everybody duck. Incoming!

Remember, the 45 was VERY grumpy in the beginning. Some say it still is.:beer:

 

[LJ45]

Premier. Hawker 4000.......everybody duck. Incoming!

Remember, the 45 was VERY grumpy in the beginning. Some say it still is.:beer:

very different, fuselage only....Learjet wants wings also. I say again, where has that been proven on a corporate jet or any jet?

 

[kingairyahoo]

very different, fuselage only....Learjet wants wings also. I say again, where has that been proven on a corporate jet or any jet?

...thats not what was said the first time which was a general statement about weight savings of composite...which made it sound like you were doubting the advatages of same :nuts:

 

[400A]

very different, fuselage only....Learjet wants wings also. I say again, where has that been proven on a corporate jet or any jet?

None on a jet I am aware of. FWIW on the starship the ride was awesome with the flex of the wing. No problems related to the Wing.

Is the 787 wing composite?

 

[kingairyahoo]

very different, fuselage only....Learjet wants wings also. I say again, where has that been proven on a corporate jet or any jet?

None on a jet I am aware of. FWIW on the starship the ride was awesome with the flex of the wing. No problems related to the Wing.

Is the 787 wing composite?

actually, composite wings have been around for awhile...i seem to recall a block of F16s that were ordered by (i think it was) the Japanese.

barring the wording of "any jet" disallows the Starship, but we all know the FAA essentially drove that into the ground.

hell...airbus just made the largest composite wing to date for the A400

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...mpleted-making-it-largest-composite-wing.html

and yes...the 787 is composite wing

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/2606