Flying Struck Work???

[PCL_128]

You are correct. It's called an Alter-ego airline. The end result is the same.

This is not an alter-ego. Everyone needs to take a step back and give the RAH pilots some breathing room. They have done nothing wrong, and I doubt they will do anything wrong. The decision to do flying for MEH was not theirs, it was Bedford's and Timmmaaaaay's. Until a lawful strike is called, the RAH pilots have no grounds to refuse any flying.

 

[Captain Morgan]

I stand corrected. You've furloughed some pilots. Doesn't change the fact that others have rejoiced in this flying to prevent more furloughing. If management has been planning this for a while, it still shouldn't change the reaction of your pilot group. 75% of the mainline pilots are losing there jobs because of an agreement that your management is pursuing. Be careful there. Those pilots will not be all to happy, and there have been blacklist lists' for lesser evils. Be unified and do the right thing.

How about you mind your own business and worry about yourself. Leave the real decisions to the grown-ups and trust that we will do the best we can.

 

[Skaff]

How about you mind your own business and worry about yourself. Leave the real decisions to the grown-ups and trust that we will do the best we can.

Trust you. Nice. Mind my own business? You don't know me and you don't know my business. All I know is there aren't many Repubic types speaking up about how this is wrong. Mostly just apathetic statements and avoiding the real issue.

 

[Minimaniac]

Be careful there. Those pilots will not be all to happy, and there have been blacklist lists' for lesser evils. Be unified and do the right thing.

Hmmm, a threatening tone. Here is a little more free education for you- Our Union has been in contact with the midwest ALPA group, and we have both explained our positions to each other. Both groups were blindsided by this deal, and both groups recognize that the management teams of both companies are to blame for this. Having personally spoke to some Midwest pilots, I can say that there is no widespread animosity towards the Republic pilot group. The EXPERIENCED PROFESSIONALS (something I hope one day you can be) at Midwest understand the legal processes involved in overturning this deal, and the constraints imposed upon the pilot groups by the Railway Labor Act. We have discussed the apparent contract violations with their group, and now we all are waiting for this to unfold at its painfully slow pace. Ethically, the group at RAH is on the same page as the Midwest group. However, ethics do not hold up in court, and we are not experts on the Midwest ALPA contract, so we must pursue a different legal path than Midwest Pilots. We will pursue the avenue of violations against our CBA. While this may seem selfish to some, since we at RAH have less to immediately lose from this deal, I hope you come full circle and understand that this is the only legal challenge we can mount.

Anyhow, I understand your negative feelings Skaff, but there has been enough time since the deal was announced for you to cool down and start applying a little reason and intelligence to your views of this matter. Nothing is going to be resolved until November at the earliest, I imagine (unless we can get an injunction) so you might as well settle down, and show a little patience. Think before you speak. Gather facts. Use reason. Do all those things make a good captain, because I know you don't stumble through your job everyday with this poor attitude (at least I hope not, because it is quite dangerous).

 

[Speedtape]

This is not an alter-ego. Everyone needs to take a step back and give the RAH pilots some breathing room. They have done nothing wrong, and I doubt they will do anything wrong. The decision to do flying for MEH was not theirs, it was Bedford's and Timmmaaaaay's. Until a lawful strike is called, the RAH pilots have no grounds to refuse any flying.

Lawful strike? It's my understanding that if you are not in Sec 6 negotiations and under oversight of the NMB that a collective bargaining unit can strike anytime they want.

You may not be an official alter-ego, but you will be Doing Business As an alter-ego the first flight you take under Midwest colors. It's easy to say that you don't make the decisions, that your management does, but who is flying the airplane? In my book, that is a decision that you make! Even Dr. Phil could see through that one!

 

[Donsa320]

Lawful strike? It's my understanding that if you are not in Sec 6 negotiations and under oversight of the NMB that a collective bargaining unit can strike anytime they want.


No, I don't think so. If you are not in negotiations you would still be under a contract. Under the RLA your contract is extended indefinetly after the amendable date. If you "strike" then that would be unlawful and you will be in court instantly. There will be a restraining order ssued and if you persist, jail time is in your immediate future.
When I say the collective "you" I mean your union officers and in some cases individual members. Ask the AA guys about that. Then came the civil lawsuits, again against individual members.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Trust you. Nice. Mind my own business? You don't know me and you don't know my business. All I know is there aren't many Repubic types speaking up about how this is wrong. Mostly just apathetic statements and avoiding the real issue.

Honestly, I could care less about your business and I'm not sure I want to know you either. Why should we have to waste our valuable resources fielding a PR campaign against people like you who have no direct bearing on the issue and drain our energy? Energy that we could be using to address the real issue. Just STFU and let us take care of this! I can assure you, about 99.9% of us don't want this to go through. I can also assure you as stated 50 times before, that our union is in contact with Midwest's union and we are grabbing the bull by the horns. Now go play with yourself and think happy thoughts. uke:

 

[labbats]

The telling thing will be if RAH has to find people to fly in MKE due to lack of volunteers. If they wind up paying for everyone's hotel on a TDY, then the pilots are not to blame. However, if people willingly bid for MKE then they are to blame.

I can pretty much guarantee that RAH planned on bidding this without paying for every crew's hotel and round the clock per diem in MKE. Stick it to them by having everyone at that airline refuse to bid for MKE.

 

[Axel]

The telling thing will be if RAH has to find people to fly in MKE due to lack of volunteers. If they wind up paying for everyone's hotel on a TDY, then the pilots are not to blame. However, if people willingly bid for MKE then they are to blame.

I can pretty much guarantee that RAH planned on bidding this without paying for every crew's hotel and round the clock per diem in MKE. Stick it to them by having everyone at that airline refuse to bid for MKE.

Not quite true, unfortunately. The RAH contract contains a provision by which vacancies that are not bid will be assigned in reverse order of seniority. By that logic, any bases established by the company to support their little maneuver should end up involuntarily staffed by the most junior pilots on the seniority list.

Unless, as you said, people bid for it. That would be bad.

There are a couple of hooligans shouting from the sidelines with no direct stake in this issue. Shout on. Without the standing to comment you are shouting only to hear yourself shout.

 

[Ratherbsurfing]

Trust you. Nice. Mind my own business? You don't know me and you don't know my business. All I know is there aren't many Repubic types speaking up about how this is wrong. Mostly just apathetic statements and avoiding the real issue.

Okay, i'll bite. First of all it's not wrong, nor is it right for that matter. It's simply free market capitalism at work. I'll say it again; there is no right or wrong with respect to what's happening in this situation and the actions of the pilots at Republic.

I wish this wasn't happening. Midwest is a great product and it's a shame to see such high quality positions with higher pay and benefits be replaced by positions with less of both. Additionally, it's truly a shame that so many people are going to be financially and emotionally affected. I sincerely feel sorry for them.

But, for the internet idiots here, i'll say it one last time. What's happening is not wrong or the fault of the pilots at Republic. It's simply a further reduction of our passion and livelihoods and just sad. . .

 

[time builder]

Okay, i'll bite. First of all it's not wrong, nor is it right for that matter. It's simply free market capitalism at work.

But, for the internet idiots here, i'll say it one last time. What's happening is not wrong or the fault of the pilots at Republic. It's simply a further reduction of our passion and livelihoods and just sad. . .

Seriously, folks are trying to call them scabs or alter-ego, whatever. If you want a single word, call it what it is: "outsourcing."

It's legal, it's common practice throughout the industry. You really think Republic is the first airline to contract for previously mainline held routes?

A large portion of the RJ's in the US were built to replace 727's that were retired shortly after 2001. Thank heavens for scope clause too, or else we'd see airlines outsourcing to "regionals" flying boeings and airbus.

In an ideal world, airlines would only outsource to take advantage of an operation they are unable to feasably provide (ie turboprop service). Unfortunately, we have such a pilot surplus that airlines abuse cheap labor, and outsource to save a few bucks.

 

[PCL_128]

Lawful strike? It's my understanding that if you are not in Sec 6 negotiations and under oversight of the NMB that a collective bargaining unit can strike anytime they want.

No, not even close. You can only strike when the NMB has released you. Period. Strikes outside of a lawful release by the NMB are prohibited by the RLA. The only possible exception is if your contract is abrogated by a bankruptcy court, but we haven't tested that legal theory, yet.

You may not be an official alter-ego, but you will be Doing Business As an alter-ego the first flight you take under Midwest colors. It's easy to say that you don't make the decisions, that your management does, but who is flying the airplane? In my book, that is a decision that you make! Even Dr. Phil could see through that one!

First, it isn't my company. I'm just defending these guys that are getting trashed unfairly. Second, what do you expect them to do? Refuse to fly? They'll get fired, and the law won't protect them since it won't be a legal strike. Don't fight battles that you can't win.

 

[Speedtape]

No, not even close. You can only strike when the NMB has released you. Period. Strikes outside of a lawful release by the NMB are prohibited by the RLA. The only possible exception is if your contract is abrogated by a bankruptcy court, but we haven't tested that legal theory, yet.



First, it isn't my company. I'm just defending these guys that are getting trashed unfairly. Second, what do you expect them to do? Refuse to fly? They'll get fired, and the law won't protect them since it won't be a legal strike. Don't fight battles that you can't win.

\

Regarding the strike, I think you are wrong.

Regarding getting fired for refusing to fly, if every pilot says NO, what are they going to do, fire all of them?

 

[Axel]

..................................http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/archive/winter1999art3.pdf

 

[Donsa320]

\

Regarding the strike, I think you are wrong.

Regarding getting fired for refusing to fly, if every pilot says NO, what are they going to do, fire all of them?

In a word, yes. Your choice is to work or resign. PCL128 is correct, don't pick fights you cannot win.

DC

 

[tyuwerty]

\

Regarding the strike, I think you are wrong.

Regarding getting fired for refusing to fly, if every pilot says NO, what are they going to do, fire all of them?

He is right about the strike. They can't just walk out.

The RAH pilots can't even agree on what color their union bag tags should be (red, yellow, green). You think they will all say "NO".

LMFAO!!!!

Not trying to slam on RAH here, I think you would be hard pressed to find 100% of any pilot group that would just "refuse" to fly.

 

[PCL_128]

Regarding the strike, I think you are wrong.

Yeah, I guess all that training I received from ALPA National on this subject when I was a rep was just wrong. I should have just called Speedtape and got his excellent legal opinion instead.

Regarding getting fired for refusing to fly, if every pilot says NO, what are they going to do, fire all of them?

Every pilot wouldn't refuse. Maybe 100 would, at most, if the effort was sufficiently organized at the grass roots. And yes, the company would certainly fire every last one of them. These emotional reactions to circumstances need to stop from pilots. You need to think things through and develop coherent strategies that will actually work. Grandiose dreams of 2000+ pilots refusing to fly work that they can't legally refuse are just counter-productive.

 

[Speedtape]

In a word, yes. Your choice is to work or resign. PCL128 is correct, don't pick fights you cannot win.

DC

Thats's weak! Yeah, let's just let management win and cannabilize our industry! Let's see--that makes us Tools!

Is your job safe?

 

[Speedtape]

Yeah, I guess all that training I received from ALPA National on this subject when I was a rep was just wrong. I should have just called Speedtape and got his excellent legal opinion instead.

Expert, maybe, you should go back and get some of that most excellent training. You may have missed something while in class.



Every pilot wouldn't refuse. Maybe 100 would, at most, if the effort was sufficiently organized at the grass roots. And yes, the company would certainly fire every last one of them. These emotional reactions to circumstances need to stop from pilots. You need to think things through and develop coherent strategies that will actually work. Grandiose dreams of 2000+ pilots refusing to fly work that they can't legally refuse are just counter-productive.

Sadly, you are probably correct. But it would not take 100 percent to make it work.

Quit lecturing me. You need to quit being so passive and so willing to grabbing your ankles. Is your job safe? There is nothing wrong with grandiose dreams. If a few, were not willing to dream--you certainly would be sitting and living in the dark. Maybe, the lightbulb will come on for you someday, Mr. Expert!

By the way, your alpa training qualifies you how to fill out an expense form and wear a silver pin!

 

[PCL_128]

Nevermind. I'm not going to argue with a fool.

 

[Avi8tor2000]

Nevermind. I'm not going to argue with a fool.

Probably the best idea.

It is frightening how many people work in this industry who simply don't know how it works, legally speaking. No matter how many people want to do what Speedtape is professing, it is simply not feasible. You need the law on your side or else you are fighting a losing battle.

I'm sure the pilots at RAH thank your understanding of this situation and hope its a common sentiment among the majority of Midwest pilots.

 

[Speedtape]

Nevermind. I'm not going to argue with a fool.

DITTO

 

[Full of LUV]

Wait a minute.....

Unfortunately, we have such a pilot surplus that airlines abuse cheap labor, and outsource to save a few bucks.

Wait a minute..... I thought there was a serious pilot shortage, hence the need for age 65! Now you say there is a pilot surplus?????? Does not compute!

 

[SF340Guy]

From an ALPA FAQ site: Why do I have to "Fly Now, Grieve Later" and why is my Union unable to stop this?

Simply put, the RLA and court decisions have held that employees must comply with an instruction from their direct supervisor, with a couple of exceptions. First, an employee may refuse an instruction that they reasonably believe to be unsafe. Second, an employee may refuse an order that is "clearly" a violation of the contract. Keep in mind, though, that if the Company can make a reasonable claim, whether they are right or wrong, that the Contract allows it, you should comply and grieve it later. In essence, the purpose of this rule applied to airlines is to keep planes moving and explains the overall purpose of the RLA. Thus, "fly now, grieve later" is a law and leaves a union unable to stop it.​

I am not sure what IBTs stance is, but isnt it ALPAs stated policy in contract violations, in cases involving unresolved issues, "Fly it, then grieve it, it is easier to fight a contract violation than a termination."

I was ALPA at a previous carrier, and we actually had a meeting with ALPA during indoc, (I know, a union showing up to greet its new members, shocking). That is what we were told at that time. Granted it was 2000, but that was the policy then. So can RAH pilots be held to a higher standard than ALPAs own policy?

 

[Axel]

Copied from an RAH internal bulletin board:

(Edited for brevity and to protect identities on a public board)

...a little guidance here if it is available, please....

...Those of us who were assigned Midwest trips (even though we tried to bid around them; ) are we to do the "fly it and grieve shuffle" or are we to refuse the flying as illegal...?

I would love to be told I am not to...

So what do we do? Gene's letter to BB is pretty clear that we consider this flying a violation of the contract. What is the position of the leadership regarding whether we have the legal standing to refuse it?

If we do not have the legal standing to refuse the flying, it would be a help to have documentation on letterhead stating the position of the leadership so I can display it (along with my copy of the grievance paperwork, my black arm band and my inverted American Flag) to the MEH crews....

 

[av8tor4239]

Alpa Sux

 

[248to2.8]

Like any union could do a better job in this situation. More like this industry and the people running these companies suck.