Pilot Fatigue finally hits the front page!!

[Auburn MD Flyer]

I called in FATIGUED at NWA (mainline, DC-9 F/O) and got my walking papers. IMO, Companies really don't care about FAR's or rested & alert pilots, just GREED and the bottom line.

 

[pilotyip]

bottom line?

I called in FATIGUED at NWA (mainline, DC-9 F/O) and got my walking papers. IMO, Companies really don't care about FAR's or rested & alert pilots, just GREED and the bottom line.

without a bottom line there are no pilot jobs

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

When? Been at nwa for 13 years and never heard of a firing over a fatigue call. I think you are leaving a little something out.

I called in FATIGUED at NWA (mainline, DC-9 F/O) and got my walking papers. IMO, Companies really don't care about FAR's or rested & alert pilots, just GREED and the bottom line.

 

[CopilotDoug]

One Piece of the Puzzle

without a bottom line there are no pilot jobs

That's only one part of the puzzle.

 

[pilotyip]

what other parts

That's only one part of the puzzle.

If you have no bottom line; you have no other parts

 

[CopilotDoug]

If you have no bottom line; you have no other parts

But how you get there is the difference. Look at Southwests business practices: They take care of the employee first because that in turn will ensure the customer gets taken care of. Jump to the other side of the spectrum with United: They're taking care of the shareholder first and neglecting the employees. Consequently, they are falling behind the power curve when it comes to making money. Disgruntled employees aren't productive employees.

Why did USAJet bring up their base pay and offer education reimbursements?

 

[waveflyer]

without a bottom line there are no pilot jobs

when pilots crash there is no bottom line. how many scheduling practices are possible for a year or two- but over time are awful for your health? I view many of the scheduling practices in the airlines to be akin to fast food. Just as bad and you better be taking awfully good care of yourself on the few off-days you have to make up for it.

pencil pushers should have a voice- but not the SOLE voice. I've said it so many times-- it doesn't matter if you pay me $10/hour more or less... but when i stop giving a dam^-- you will begin losing money in ways that you cannot account for- and nothing diabolical- but it's human nature when you one day you just aren't going the extra mile and providing service to the customers... and it begins happening all over the company-- b/c management gets shady trying to shave off a few dollars from the employees.

And it's not as if the money that's shaven is going back into the company to make it stronger... right, yip? You DO know where that money has gone recently, don't you?

 

[waveflyer]

Even a regional Captain is in the upper 25% of US wages earners, many of them could not make that money outside of the cockpit.

depends- what does it take to get there? How many people who make that kind of money have invested as much of their own money as pilots? How many take on that kind of responsibility? How many have the talent to do what we do? Or the desire? Do capable pilots grow on trees?

You have a low opinion of pilots. It takes two pilots to fly an RJ- and one of them could easily make more money working at McDonald's.

 

[pilotyip]

anyone can fly an airplane

depends- what does it take to get there? How many people who make that kind of money have invested as much of their own money as pilots? How many take on that kind of responsibility? How many have the talent to do what we do? Or the desire? Do capable pilots grow on trees?

You have a low opinion of pilots. It takes two pilots to fly an RJ- and one of them could easily make more money working at McDonald's.

Anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can fly an airplane. If I can do it, anyone can. Yes I know we all have horror stories of someone who should stay 100' away from all airplanes the rest of his life. I fly as often as I can because I like to fly. 75K-90K per year to do something you like would be an unbelievable job in most people’s books. I do not have a low option of pilots, I hang around them at the airport all the time and talk airplane stories, I have a low option of people who have the job I like and complain about it.

 

[Papps]

Even a regional Captain is in the upper 25% of US wages earners, many of them could not make that money outside of the cockpit.

Apples to Oranges comparison. If you went into tech work or engineering you would make regional captain pay your first day on the job.

When compared to the 5 trillion walmart shelf stockers in the world the pay is high, but when you do an equal comparison to skilled trades, or a useful degree in anything else the pay is mediocre at best.

Im not complaining about the pay, its quite livable. I just think your comparison is a bit bogus.

 

[pilotyip]

Skilled trades

but when you do an equal comparison to skilled trades, or a useful degree in anything else the pay is mediocre at best. Im not complaining about the pay, its quite livable. I just think your comparison is a bit bogus.

Skilled trades?, plumbers, metal smith, auto mechanic, all the areas that like a pilot do not need a college degree?

 

[Papps]

Skilled trades?, plumbers, metal smith, auto mechanic, all the areas that like a pilot do not need a college degree?

read my post again you missed my point. Skilled trades do make good money.

Im saying that your comparison lumps pilot wages in with the minimum wage mcdonalds and walmart folks and wow, we end up in the top 25 earning bracket in the US. If you compare us with other skilled trades and degree jobs, we are not the elite earners that you imply.

 

[Airbum]

Skilled trades?, plumbers, metal smith, auto mechanic, all the areas that like a pilot do not need a college degree?

last I checked the President didn't have to have a college degree either. Do most? yes... goes for Presidents and pilots <g> not that I want to degrade or chosen profession comparing it to politicians.

 

[pilotyip]

Dept of Labour

read my post again you missed my point. Skilled trades do make good money.

Im saying that your comparison lumps pilot wages in with the minimum wage mcdonalds and walmart folks and wow, we end up in the top 25 earning bracket in the US. If you compare us with other skilled trades and degree jobs, we are not the elite earners that you imply.

Only know what the dept of labour posts as wages by percentage in 2005. If you want more money, go to a job that pays more. Or do you like me; fly because you like to? BTW Don't bring the degreee in here; it has nothing to do be being a great pilot. Last NJ guys and the last SWA from here did not have degrees.

 

[Papps]

Only know what the dept of labour posts as wages by percentage in 2005. If you want more money, go to a job that pays more. Or do you like me; fly because you like to? BTW Don't bring the degreee in here; it has nothing to do be being a great pilot. Last NJ guys and the last SWA from here did not have degrees.

Again you failed to read and comprehend my posts. I stated in the first post that the pay is ok and livable. I said i didn't have a problem with the pay. I said that your comparison was bogus. You are trying to argue against a point that i didnt make.

If you want to compare pilot wages with the vast pool of minimum wage jobs it will be in the top n-th percent. But i think it is a bad comparison.

 

[Papps]

BTW Don't bring the degreee in here.

uggg. I brought up degrees because it is an expensive investment that can get you a certain job, much like flight training is an expensive investment that can get you a flying job,

just like investing nothing in education, training, vocational etc...will get you the night shift at Walmart. Talking to you is like talking to a gumball machine.

 

[waveflyer]

Skilled trades?, plumbers, metal smith, auto mechanic, all the areas that like a pilot do not need a college degree?

Did you just compare being a plumber to being a pilot? No offense taken, i'm just asking for clarification.
I will agree that any decently smart and hard working person can fly an airplane- but what it takes to make a flying career is much different. You didn't do it and make it to a good flying job. Why not? You choose not to fly an airplane for a living and then say that those who do are complainers? Why? Do you miss it? Did you forget what flying 4 day trip upon 5 day trip at all hours was like on the body?

There is a big difference between flying an airplane and managing one that is doing a job on a tough schedule for years on end. There is a section of pilots who have lost perspective- i will give you that. But when every pilot flying a line has certain complaints- it goes against logic to say that we are all off our rockers.

and i'll add- this career requires tremendous $$ to get started- much more than a plumber or any of those skilled trades you mentioned. Is that not valuable in the end?

 

[waveflyer]

Btw- All Pilots Here:

Pilotyip Is Very Typical Of What Management Thinks Of You. Those Who Have Also Worked In The Offices Can Back Me Up- Don't Forget- They Become Indoctrinated Against You. It's Just What Happens. You Do Something They Don't Everyday- And They Sit On The Ground And Judge You.

 

[Papps]

Btw- All Pilots Here:

Pilotyip Is Very Typical Of What Management Thinks Of You. Those Who Have Also Worked In The Offices Can Back Me Up- Don't Forget- They Become Indoctrinated Against You. It's Just What Happens. You Do Something They Don't Everyday- And They Sit On The Ground And Judge You.

They like to fly a desk 8 hours a day and call you a complainer if you raise the BS flag after 15 hours + hours on duty for the last six days for welfare wages.

Once a manager asked me why I had not turned in a particular piece of paperwork. I commented that i tryed but when i get to work he isn't there yet, and when I leave he has been gone for hours. I had time to turn it in one sunday but he wasn't there on the weekends.

 

[pilotyip]

Professioal training is the key

uggg. I brought up degrees because it is an expensive investment that can get you a certain job, much like flight training is an expensive investment that can get you a flying job,
.

Agee that is the point; you have invested in a career field; it is professional training. But it does not have to a 4 yr BS/BA degree. 10 yrs flying in the Army, after going through their high school to flight school makes you a good pilot and capable of pursuing a career, but it is not a four year degree

 

[waveflyer]

It does take a 4 year degree.
It does b/c a full 93% hired at majors have one- and those w/o- have a MUCH harder time getting interviews, much less hired.
Recruiters want to know that you can take on an academic program and finish it successfully. Begrudge it all you want- but to say it isn't necessary is only technically correct.
But maybe that's one of your excuses for why you aren't flying for a living. And i can see that if you haven't expended the effort to get a degree- that you would value a flying career less. B/c for you, all you had to learn was to fly. The rest of us were working our tails off (having fun) and going through all the requirements to make a career out of this.

 

[Papps]

Agee that is the point; you have invested in a career field it is professional trainig, but it does not have to a 4 yr BS/BA degree. 10 yrs flying in the Army, after going through their high school to flight school makes you a good pilot and capable of pursuing a career, but it is not a four year degree

Ya with all that helo time, a person would be a very nice candidate to pay for fixed wing training so he can get that lucrative job dropping skydivers for a few thousand hours .

In all fairness I made the comparison between skilled trades and pilots. But it was to show that anyone with a useful skill set should be able to get a living wage.

I realize that by straight numbers a regional capt. Is in the upper 25% of US wage earners yip. But I would like to see how that number actually compares to people with degrees, or people with useful or expensive skills. Take out the burger flippers and kenny's shoes workers and lets rerun the equation.

We probably don't fall in the elite catagory that you imply that we do.

 

[pilotyip]

you sell helo short

Ya with all that helo time, a person would be a very nice candidate to pay for fixed wing training so he can get that lucrative job dropping skydivers for a few thousand hours

Many of the Army pilots have fixed wing background, C-12, CE-560, even interviewed a G-IV Army pilot, but NJ grabbed him. Also a pilot who been flying a Blackhawk, or CH-47 has got great stick skills, great IFR skills and will normally out fly their civilian sim partner on the third night. This particularly true if the civilian has been flying piston twins; light sensitive control touch is the secret to flying a sim, the same as a helo. When it came time to be a PIC, they had already been there done that. They moved into the DC-9 after 3 months in the DA-20 with no problems. I hired every one I could get my hands they were great flyers. Then the other airlines found out about them. Don't sell your rotary wing brothers short they are a fantastic collection pilots with fantastic skills.

 

[pilotyip]

It does take a 4 year degree.
It does b/c a full 93% hired at majors have one- and those w/o- have a MUCH harder time getting interviews, much less hired.
Recruiters want to know that you can take on an academic program and finish it successfully. Begrudge it all you want- but to say it isn't necessary is only technically correct.
But maybe that's one of your excuses for why you aren't flying for a living. And i can see that if you haven't expended the effort to get a degree- that you would value a flying career less. B/c for you, all you had to learn was to fly. The rest of us were working our tails off (having fun) and going through all the requirements to make a career out of this.

BS plus MS, still could not find a good flying job. Story about a 26 yr old DC-9 Captain. Hired with us with no college degree, had our company reimburse him for tution, got his dergee almost paid for while earning 60K per year. Got hired by NWA, and said no thanks USA Jet is the place for me.

 

[skyking]

what was his name?

 

[waveflyer]

will normally out fly their civilian sim partner on the third night. This particularly true if the civilian has been flying piston twins; light sensitive control touch is the secret to flying a sim, the same as a helo. When it came time to be a PIC, they had already been there done that. They moved into the DC-9 after 3 months in the DA-20 with no problems. I hired every one I could get my hands they were great flyers. Then the other airlines found out about them. Don't sell your rotary wing brothers short they are a fantastic collection pilots with fantastic skills.

great, another army v civ debate. what kind of civ pilot's end up there?
knock yourself out-- it's been the opposite in my career as they do not fully understand the pitch/power relationship. (which is why recruiting dept's don't tend to accept the time) PIC is noted though as civ schools are getting too much dual/babysitting these days in the training world.
-there are exceptions to every rule- how about we just don't stereotype any background? i've seen great, average, and awful come from everywhere.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

But how you get there is the difference. Look at Southwests business practices: They take care of the employee first because that in turn will ensure the customer gets taken care of. Jump to the other side of the spectrum with United: They're taking care of the shareholder first and neglecting the employees. Consequently, they are falling behind the power curve when it comes to making money. Disgruntled employees aren't productive employees.

Why did USAJet bring up their base pay and offer education reimbursements?

Not sure what you know about UAL.. but they are not taking care of the shareholders...

 

[CopilotDoug]

Not sure what you know about UAL.. but they are not taking care of the shareholders...

Attempting too...futilely

 

[pilotyip]

Please

they do not fully understand the pitch/power relationship. .

oh please! On flt number two they have it figured out. These are profesional aviators who are trained to standards in a crew concept. They are easy to teach they listen they learn and the only flight depts not hiring them are the ones who have never hired any. In 1998/9 I coudl fill my classes with Army guys if I wanted to, but by 2000 they were all being offered jobs at the regionals, and fractionals. However will admin they were wide eyed the first night in the sim when they went from 0-200 Kts ion 60 seconds