Why Does DALPA Want Closed Arbitration Hearings?

[JoeMerchant]

Why do you hijack every Delta thread?

....not hijacking anything......


"There is an unresolved issue contained in the Ground Rules document regarding open hearings. Our firm belief is that the arbitration should be open to all Northwest and Delta pilots and their families. The Merger Committees have been unable to resolve this issue, and it will therefore be decided by the arbitration panel."

DALPA wants to control their version of the truth....just like the PID.....They are not to be trusted....

 

[701EV]

"There is an unresolved issue contained in the Ground Rules document regarding open hearings. Our firm belief is that the arbitration should be open to all Northwest and Delta pilots and their families. The Merger Committees have been unable to resolve this issue, and it will therefore be decided by the arbitration panel."

I'm curious as to why can't the Merger Committees resolve the issues? It's two ALPA units they can't hammer it out?

701EV

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

"There is an unresolved issue contained in the Ground Rules document regarding open hearings. Our firm belief is that the arbitration should be open to all Northwest and Delta pilots and their families. The Merger Committees have been unable to resolve this issue, and it will therefore be decided by the arbitration panel."

I'm curious as to why can't the Merger Committees resolve the issues? It's two ALPA units they can't hammer it out?

701EV

Of course not, dumb@$$.... ALPA units are not the same entity. We are all looking out for our own interests. If you don't understand that, I've got some really nice oceanfront property to sell you in AZ. Interested?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Of course not, dumb@$$.... ALPA units are not the same entity. We are all looking out for our own interests. If you don't understand that, I've got some really nice oceanfront property to sell you in AZ. Interested?

Which is precisely what 701EV was getting at.....You just made his point....We aren't a true union....

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Which is precisely what 701EV was getting at.....You just made his point....We aren't a true union....

Exactly, and you solidified that with your frivilous lawsuit. Dividing regional/mainline pilots even more. Congrats, you and Ford & co. will go down in the history books as the same types of folks that worked for Eastern during the strike!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Having closed hearings is probably good for maintaining normal sleep patterns and promotion of good cardiac health.

Really, what good could come from open hearings? The die is cast.

 

[701EV]

"Of course not, dumb@$$.... ALPA units are not the same entity. We are all looking out for our own interests. If you don't understand that, I've got some really nice oceanfront property to sell you in AZ. Interested?"

Peanuckle, Got you hook, line, and sinker. Now if the price is right for that property maybe we can deal.

Joe, I didn't know anyone would bite that fast. They say their's one comming down the pike everyday.

"Exactly, and you solidified that with your frivilous lawsuit. Dividing regional/mainline pilots even more. Congrats, you and Ford & co. will go down in the history books as the same types of folks that worked for Eastern during the strike!"

Scope, I hope your kidding right?

1st. Chuck G the Delta MEC chairman did more damage than any lawsiut. If Chuck G would have been on the cutting edge and listened to the PID of 2000 and move foward with it. Their would not be Skywest, Mesa, Republic, Shuttle America, Chatauqua, and Pinnicle, doing all the Delta Connection flying. It would be Delta doing the flying. ASA and Comair would have been put at the bottom of Delta. Delta would own every bit of flying in the Delta world. Yes Delta pilots may have flown CRJ's, but that's better than being on the street. Oh wait, they did fly the CRJ for ASA at first year pay instead of whatever year they where at. Chuck G had a chance to make headlines in Flying the Line III. But, Chuck G said " If you want a job at Delta just apply". Now we have DCI doing over 50% of Delta flying and that sucks but, its never going to change.

2nd. If it wasn't for the RJDC lawsuit ASA and Comair would have had the Delta pilots shoved down our throats. Like the US Airways/Mid Atlantic screw up tha happened over their. So I guess it's ok for Delta and Pan Am pilots to sue ALPA but, God forbid anyone else sue ALPA for ALPA's screw up's!

701EV

 

[jetflier]

??

Most court proceedings are open to the public. The NWA/Republic hearings were open. Personally I'd rather see both sides positions publicly with nothing to hide.

We've had way too much unsubstantiated "he-said-she-said" with the garden variety line pilots on both sides getting mushroom communications.

Let's have it in the open and see what both sides are really about.

From a recent NWA Merger Cmte update:

IMHO the hearing should be closed.

People attending the meeting and disagreeing with the arbitration just might interrupt the proceedings. Distracting the negotiators and Arbitrators might be counterproductive and adversely affect the final arbitration decision.

I'm all for open meetings, but not this one.

 

[michael707767]

double post

 

[michael707767]

"1st. Chuck G the Delta MEC chairman did more damage than any lawsiut. If Chuck G would have been on the cutting edge and listened to the PID of 2000 and move foward with it. Their would not be Skywest, Mesa, Republic, Shuttle America, Chatauqua, and Pinnicle, doing all the Delta Connection flying. It would be Delta doing the flying. ASA and Comair would have been put at the bottom of Delta. Delta would own every bit of flying in the Delta world. Yes Delta pilots may have flown CRJ's, but that's better than being on the street.

yeah, and given that the Delta contract at the time did no require the Rjs to be flown by the mainline, how exactly would Chuck G have accomplished your ideal? We could have achieved one list, sure. But the company was under no obligation to honor it. How much would it have cost us to get them to put all the flying under one contract? Is there any price we could have paid to get the company to agree?

Look, Dalpa, and the other major MECs shoud have never given up RJ flying. But, once you give it up there is no way to get it back, one list or not. Management saves too much money to ever agree to moving the RJ flying to the mainline.

Your pipedream sounds good in theory, but in practice could not have been attained.

 

[800Dog]

yeah, and given that the Delta contract at the time did no require the Rjs to be flown by the mainline, how exactly would Chuck G have accomplished your ideal? We could have achieved one list, sure. But the company was under no obligation to honor it. How much would it have cost us to get them to put all the flying under one contract? Is there any price we could have paid to get the company to agree?

Look, Dalpa, and the other major MECs shoud have never given up RJ flying. But, once you give it up there is no way to get it back, one list or not. Management saves too much money to ever agree to moving the RJ flying to the mainline.

Your pipedream sounds good in theory, but in practice could not have been attained.

It could not be attained or taken back because the majority of Delta pilots were unwilling to press the issue. Its called a lack of resolve and the Delta pilot group has mastered it! I imagine you are in the 60%?

 

[Fly4hire]

It could not be attained or taken back because the majority of Delta pilots were unwilling to press the issue. Its called a lack of resolve and the Delta pilot group has mastered it! I imagine you are in the 60%?

Bull$@@t alert!

The reason it can not be taken back is not lack of resolve, but the fact that:

A) management is unwilling to engage in negotiations - they want the E and F scale wages and benefits and the endless stream of teenagers willing to fly JFL (jets for less), and

B) even if willing to negotiate on a single list, it will be a cost item as management sees it, that will have to come out of other areas of the contract pie to pay for.

Pretend you are a negotiator - what part of your contract are you willing to give up to buy back those RJ's on the difference of what management saves? (Hint: has to be from your contract, not the other guy's)

Pie in the sky brotherly love and eliminating whipsaw is a cost plus item to management. They don't want to protect and enhance our careers.

If they thought it would save them money over the ability outsource and whipsaw they would probably have already done it........

 

[glasspilot1]

****Originally Posted by Fly4hire
The NWA/Republic hearings were open.****



And look how well THAT turned out! :laugh:

Seriously...the open arbitration hearings didn't seem to do much to keep many Red/Green guys from being antagonistic dweebs for 20-years.

No matter how fair an integration is done, both sides think they got screwed.

Having said that, I think the NWA/Rep seniority integration turned out to be one of the fairest in the last 3 decades. If I was King for a day I would have made the fences shorter. I mean really, fences over 20 years long is ridiculous.

My best HS friend was hired at REP 6 mths before the merger and he's done just fine. He's looking over his shoulder now to BOHICA for Delta.

 

[JoeMerchant]

yeah, and given that the Delta contract at the time did no require the Rjs to be flown by the mainline, how exactly would Chuck G have accomplished your ideal? We could have achieved one list, sure. But the company was under no obligation to honor it. How much would it have cost us to get them to put all the flying under one contract? Is there any price we could have paid to get the company to agree?

Both Delta and CMR were in section 6 negotiations....Both achieved major improvements....This could have been done, but....

1. The resolve wasn't there....

and

2. We can't have our squadron buddies start off in one of those little bugsmashers...

Ego and resolve bite us in tha @$$ every time....

 

[michael707767]

Both Delta and CMR were in section 6 negotiations....Both achieved major improvements....This could have been done, but....
..

A single list would not have been enough. We would have also had to change the scope so that there was no outsourcing at all. ASA and CMR were not the only ones flying RJs for Delta at the time. So I guess you are saying its ok to exclude other airlines as long as we include you.

Look I am somone who agreed with you. I thought we should have pursued a single list. But, I realized the cost to do it would have been prohibitive. Add to that I had a CMR jumpseater during that time who was excited because his DOH would put him in the left seat of a 767. Kinda killed the whole idea for me.

 

[PuffDriver]

Add to that I had a CMR jumpseater during that time who was excited because his DOH would put him in the left seat of a 767. Kinda killed the whole idea for me.

Joe, in fact, was running around ASA at top speed chastising folks who were coming to Delta as fools for renewing their seniority date for the coming single list. Told them they were giving up their seniority.

 

[701EV]

A single list would not have been enough. We would have also had to change the scope so that there was no outsourcing at all. ASA and CMR were not the only ones flying RJs for Delta at the time. So I guess you are saying its ok to exclude other airlines as long as we include you.

michael,

An agreement could have been reached, Chuck G choose not to deal with it. Remember Leo's statement "My pilot's are going to be the best paid pilot's". Which means you can probably get what you want or need. Your right scope would have changed. Correct me if I'm wrong, in 2000 ASA and Comair were wholly owned with a small amount of RJ's. (ASA 1000 pilot's Comair 1400 pilot's?) Atlantic Coast Airlines was just stepping into the picture. I don't remember if Skywest was even in the picture yet. So the the DCI group was small. Today9/09/2008 DCI operates 2100 flights, Delta operates 1408 flights. If Delta owned it all today Delta would do 3508 flights. Chuck G And ALPA should have said. Put ASA and Comair on our list. All flying to be done by Delta Pilots. If you buy anyone else they go on the list. Contract carriers gone in five years.(ACA and Skywest) Hell Delta had just ordered 405 CRJ's before your contract was done. Chuck G new what was comming and decided not to deal with it. He could have helped stop the RJ's from getting out of the barn but, he didn't. He should go down as the worst Delta MEC Chairman ever.

Just a thought.

701EV

 

[701EV]

Add to that I had a CMR jumpseater during that time who was excited because his DOH would put him in the left seat of a 767. Kinda killed the whole idea for me.

Joe, in fact, was running around ASA at top speed chastising folks who were coming to Delta as fools for renewing their seniority date for the coming single list. Told them they were giving up their seniority.

Puff,

So one Comair jumpseater killed it for you thats all it took.

Do you really belive that. I never heard Joe or anyone else say that. Their might have been a few folks who wished that out loud but, in the real world they new that wasn't going to happen.

 

[PuffDriver]

michael,

An agreement could have been reached, Chuck G choose not to deal with it. Remember Leo's statement "My pilot's are going to be the best paid pilot's". Which means you can probably get what you want or need. Your right scope would have changed. Correct me if I'm wrong, in 2000 ASA and Comair were wholly owned with a small amount of RJ's. (ASA 1000 pilot's Comair 1400 pilot's?) Atlantic Coast Airlines was just stepping into the picture. I don't remember if Skywest was even in the picture yet. So the the DCI group was small. Today9/09/2008 DCI operates 2100 flights, Delta operates 1408 flights. If Delta owned it all today Delta would do 3508 flights. Chuck G And ALPA should have said. Put ASA and Comair on our list. All flying to be done by Delta Pilots. If you buy anyone else they go on the list. Contract carriers gone in five years.(ACA and Skywest) Hell Delta had just ordered 405 CRJ's before your contract was done. Chuck G new what was comming and decided not to deal with it. He could have helped stop the RJ's from getting out of the barn but, he didn't. He should go down as the worst Delta MEC Chairman ever.

Just a thought.

701EV

Chuck G should have said indeed all flying done by Delta pilots. ASA and Comair were not Delta pilots. The bottom 1/3 of the list wanted RJs on the property. ALPA then, and continues, to assert that RJs cannot be profitable at mainline. Thus the crux. Who to believe. Nonetheless, Comair and ASA being on the Delta list is a non-player. Look to see more and more flying diverted away from them in the future, with mainline taking over domestically again.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puff,

So one Comair jumpseater killed it for you thats all it took.

Do you really belive that. I never heard Joe or anyone else say that. Their might have been a few folks who wished that out loud but, in the real world they new that wasn't going to happen.

Nope, one jumpseater was not my story. It was somebody else's. I did indeed have several Comair and ASA jumpseaters relate stories of what exactly the RJDC was after. Also, do not forget, we now have several ASA and Comair pilots who were THERE on the property HERE. I have spoken to many of them, independently, and they all relate the same story. The RJDC walks and talks like a duck. They shot themselves in the foot by overplaying theur hand, and now t live with the reprocussions. Keep watching developments unfold with regard to NWA/DAL. The closure and drawdown of Comair in CVG is just the beginning. It is a shame that some had to spoil it for all .