DAL & NWA JPWA Vote

[Voice Of Reason]

that might have worked 30 years ago, but now people come from their 5th airline and somewhere along the way they put in roots. Once kids are in school and roots are in, its harder to move... not to mention the fact that airlines open and close bases with little financial impact (on the pilot side) since pilots can commute to the new base. Nobody is paying for your decision not to live in base... give me a break... this is the industry today.

I completely agree...it would be a small price to pay for the airlines to have added flexibility to not only retain people, but to be able to randomly move what planes operate out of where (based on need at the time). The big picture is that it would save WAY more in training costs for people who follow the aircraft bases based on commutability.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Thank you to everyone for your replies. Jetsetter, ACL65, Peanuckle, Superpilot, Nu, Jonjuan and all.

I voted yes because the pro does outweigh the con. However, I hope Occam will favor us with a little debate on his quote. I think he’s smart, but wrong. I am to fix the “wrong” part.

… the predictable "pressure points" in the future will give us another bite at this apple. I think we were unwilling to spend negotiating capital on items that the future DAL management will engage us about later.

We KNOW there will be "DC-9" replacement aircraft selected soon. We also know it will be flown by mainline pilots.
Compass can still be easily stapled. (In a manner of speaking...they already are!) Maybe it'd be a good idea to take another chomp at that apple after we've digested the chunk we're chewing right now?

O.R.
Yes Voter.

Occam,

This is basic threat assessment. A threat to the job itself is more important than a threat to the paycheck. Alter ego is the most significant threat to our collective bargaining efforts and seniority list.

You equate a flow through to a staple when there is a clear difference. The difference is the distinction whether the airplane is being flown by a Delta pilot.

According to NWA’s management the successors for most of the DC9's flying are the CRJ900 and ERJ170.

There is no better time to staple Compass:
1. The pilots at Compass have no longevity. As time passes, those who bypass will not want to be stapled below their former first officers. Seniority integration will never be as clean as it is now. Delta’s outsourcing debacle started as a result of fear over Comair and ASA’s potential seniority demands. Why not avoid that mess?
2. If you are correct and the E170/E190 is a good choice, it would clearly benefit us to get the type on the property now. In the past, predictable pressure points have resulted in relaxing scope, in part on the basis that the type is already in operation. The justification for the CRJ700, 900 and coming CRJ1000 are that the type is a minimal change from status quo.
3. It isn’t right that pilots in Company service lose longevity as they step across an imaginary and arbitrary line between alter ego divisions of the same employer.
4. There is no need to spend one iota of negotiating capital. We could operate these carriers under one list, with separate contracts. It has been done before. I’d rather fix the most serious threat now and fix the Compass pilots pay (not that there is a significant difference) later.

Alter ego threats should not be seen as a “negotiating capital” concern. Following that logic, the senior pilots outsource more and more until there are no senior pilots. No, alter ego should be interpreted as windshear, a GPWS warning, engine fire and report of flames in the cabin… everything should be done to save the airplane and the job.

You think we will get a bite at a good apple and I sure hope you are right. But you know the history of “pressure points” and we have been pressured into giving up flying. In your version it could cut either way. In my version, we know that this DC9 flying would remain on our seniority list and it need not cost us anything.

Thanks for indulging me. Hope you (and our union) consider a change regarding scope policy in general.

~~~^~~~

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas Fins,

If oil contines it's retrentchment, the DC-9s become VERY cost effective. As Occam has ALWAYS said, they are an accumulator of sorts, and are able to be rapidly deployed and re-deployed (from the desert) at almost a moments notice.

While I agree that they'll be replaced at some point, this permits some maneuvering room on our part.

The NWA guys have always been able to use the company's sore spots effectively to obtain mid-contract gains. It is VERY doable.

Nu

 

[FDJ2]

In order to achieve large contractual gains we need two things, a strong and profitable company and a unified pilot group. Neither the Delta pilots or NWA pilots have that today. We need to get there.

This JCBA gives us all the best chance to get there in the shortest time.

This isn't about kumbaya and playing nice with each other, not that there is anything wrong with that, this is a business decision which happens to be a win-win-win for all of us.

The best furlough protection you can have is a profitable and growing airline, by capturing the value of this merger sooner, rather than later, it gives us all the best opportunity to work for a growing and profitable airline.

I don't see any cons to this JCBA, it provides equity for all of us, contract improvements and parity for all, and a superior SLI process agreement that gives us all the best chance to achieve a fair and equitable seniority list.

No other pilot group has ever accomplished what the DAL/NWA pilots have on the front end of a merger. Just my 2 cents.

 

[767/757]

In order to achieve large contractual gains we need two things, a strong and profitable company and a unified pilot group. Neither the Delta pilots or NWA pilots have that today. We need to get there.

This JCBA gives us all the best chance to get there in the shortest time.

This isn't about kumbaya and playing nice with each other, not that there is anything wrong with that, this is a business decision which happens to be a win-win-win for all of us.

The best furlough protection you can have is a profitable and growing airline, by capturing the value of this merger sooner, rather than later, it gives us all the best opportunity to work for a growing and profitable airline.

I don't see any cons to this JCBA, it provides equity for all of us, contract improvements and parity for all, and a superior SLI process agreement that gives us all the best chance to achieve a fair and equitable seniority list.

No other pilot group has ever accomplished what the DAL/NWA pilots have on the front end of a merger. Just my 2 cents.

Well said and I fully agree!

 

[Occam's Razor]

I hope Occam will favor us with a little debate on his quote. I think he’s smart, but wrong.

You sound like my wife. Now shout, "OW! You're on my hair!" and we'll see if you have the impression down pat.

This is basic threat assessment.

Disagree. I think it's more "Issue Prioritization". We know the threats. I'd be nice if we could neutralize all of them at once...but it appears we can't. So we prioritize them.

A threat to the job itself is more important than a threat to the paycheck.

Are you talking to me...or a DAL B777 captain? I can show you how immediately placing all CPZ pilots on the new list would be a threat to his job...or at least the value of his job.

Alter ego is the most significant threat to our collective bargaining efforts and seniority list.

Agree. CPZ isn't an "alter ego" issue. It's an RJ Scope issue. Alter Ego refers to something else (think "equivalent size and operation"). With a line drawn based on aircraft size, it's been partitioned separately in our contract(s).

You equate a flow through to a staple when there is a clear difference.

Actually, I wrote "In a manner of speaking". That means I acknowledge there are differences.

The difference is the distinction whether the airplane is being flown by a Delta pilot.

...or future DAL pilot.

What sort of language does your CURRENT contract contain that addresses that? LOA 19?

They don't. Our's does. We incorporated it into the JCBA for a reason. It s a clear enhancement to the current DAL contract, and LOA 19.

According to NWA’s management the successors for most of the DC9's flying are the CRJ900 and ERJ170.

Change "most" to "some" and we'll agree.

There is no better time to staple Compass

If we have to pay a lot for it, there is! If/when it becomes management's issue, we'll pay less for it. At this point we've prioritized the issue as a "want" rather than a "need". It's relative importance varies based on where you sit.

The pilots at Compass have no longevity. As time passes, those who bypass will not want to be stapled below their former first officers.

Are you saying Date Of Hire is the only way to merge a list?

I'll concede it might be easier to do now, but you'll have to concede it has a price.

If you are correct and the E170/E190 is a good choice, it would clearly benefit us to get the type on the property now.

I'd prefer to let management buy the larger variant, then come to us for help integrating it. That represents opportunity for us. If an aircraft they buy to fly at the mainline (MUST fly at the mainline!) is the same type as one being flown at CPZ (or MSA), the cost to us decreases. We'd be solving their "problem" and getting something we want. The biggest issue for us would be how to set composite pay rates. That could be a food fight.

In the past, predictable pressure points have resulted in relaxing scope,

Or gaining Scope. We did it here in '98 when NWA purchased control of CAL. We got 4 Scope letters and other enhancements to our Scope because we knew what they needed to close the deal.

The justification for the CRJ700, 900 and coming CRJ1000 are that the type is a minimal change from status quo.

That's management's issue...not ours. It's significance to us is it's a cost item for them to operate the same fleet at two separate airlines.

It isn’t right that pilots in Company service lose longevity as they step across an imaginary and arbitrary line between alter ego divisions of the same employer.

Oversimplification.

Nobody loses longevity unless you assume a pilot with 500 hours that goes to work somewhere to build time and experience is "losing longevity" in that process.

There is no need to spend one iota of negotiating capital. We could operate these carriers under one list, with separate contracts. It has been done before.

I'm drawing a blank here. Can you give me the specifics of where/how it's working elsewhere right now?

I’d rather fix the most serious threat now and fix the Compass pilots pay (not that there is a significant difference) later.

Disagree. I don't believe CPZ pilot's pay is our "most serious threat".

Alter ego threats should not be seen as a “negotiating capital” concern.

Please copy your MEC and Negotiating Committee in on your concerns. They don't agree with you.

Following that logic, the senior pilots outsource more and more until there are no senior pilots. No, alter ego should be interpreted as windshear, a GPWS warning, engine fire and report of flames in the cabin… everything should be done to save the airplane and the job.

Definition issue. "Alter ego" is not what we're discussing. But I submit that if you were faced with all of those airborne emergencies simultaneously, you'd prioritize them.

We have. ("We" being both MEC's)

You think we will get a bite at a good apple and I sure hope you are right.

Except when I'm wrong...I'm always right!

 

[FBN0223]

Voted Yes

 

[JohnDoe]

I think the elements that were retained form the core of the Scope that both ALPA teams felt were essential. I won't go into details, but the predictable "pressure points" in the future will give us another bite at this apple. I think we were unwilling to spend negotiating capital on items that the future DAL management will engage us about later.

Wow. That sounds alot like the bankruptcy TA "sales-job."

"We don't believe........," "line in the sand........," "they need the lift.........."

Now add: "We'll negotiate better scope later."

Riiiiight.

 

[~~~^~~~]

John,

You are exactly right. Occam writes:

Are you talking to me...or a DAL B777 captain? I can show you how immediately placing all CPZ pilots on the new list would be a threat to his job...or at least the value of his job.

He thinks that selling Superpilot92's job to subsidize higher pay at the top end is a good thing. It is the same old "bargaining credit" logic that was used to justify the previous scope sales. Occam does not recognize the flying as "alter ego" but read what Delta's managers have to say on page 8 of this month's SKY Magazine and form your own opinion:

"Chances are...you are reading this on one of Delta's... regional jets. That's more than two-thirds Delta's daily schedule, more than 2,700 flights daily to 233 destinations...

Our goal is to mirror the experience so that you do not know if you are on a Delta Connection, or a Delta airplane."
http://www.delta-sky.com/2008_08/fullmagazine/

That is alter ego. Occam's logic fails when he writes:

Alter Ego refers to something else (think "equivalent size and operation"). With a line drawn based on aircraft size, it's been partitioned separately in our contract(s).

If Compass replaces DC9 flying and the customer can't tell the difference, it is alter ego by the established latin phrase "a second self" and in labor law as a Company under the same control, serving the same purpose, to the same customers and in the case of Compass, same ownership.

Compass is a ALPA sanctioned, alter ego. In my opinion it is the union's duty to bring pilots together to bargain collectively NOT to outsource and sell jobs.

The old timers who formed our union knew alter ego was the #1 threat to our union and when Pan Am acquired their feeder, Ransome Airways, they extended the seniority list down placing Ransome on the list. Ransome pilots worked under their Ransome agreement but had Pan Am numbers & Pan Am longevity. Some of those pilots retired from Delta. US Air sort of did the same thing with MidAtlantic/Republic.

There are ways to keep this flying on Delta's list, but Occam does not want to see them. Occam does not want to recognize that outsourcing two thirds of your flying is a problem.

Obviously I'm picking on Occam simply because he represents the way our union currently thinks about alter ego replacement of our jobs. He is correct when he writes:

Please copy your MEC and Negotiating Committee in on your concerns. They don't agree with you.

and that is why I'm having a very hard time rationally voting "yes." They have done some terrific and truly impressive work, but I just can't vote to enable more outsourcing of Delta flying. This issue is that important.

 

[~~~^~~~]

In order to achieve large contractual gains we need two things, a strong and profitable company and a unified pilot group. Neither the Delta pilots or NWA pilots have that today. We need to get there.

This JCBA gives us all the best chance to get there in the shortest time.

The best furlough protection you can have is a profitable and growing airline, by capturing the value of this merger sooner, rather than later, it gives us all the best opportunity to work for a growing and profitable airline.

I don't see any cons to this JCBA, it provides equity for all of us, contract improvements and parity for all, and a superior SLI process agreement that gives us all the best chance to achieve a fair and equitable seniority list.

No other pilot group has ever accomplished what the DAL/NWA pilots have on the front end of a merger. Just my 2 cents.

FDJ2:

Excellent, excellent, points.

I've been very conflicted about this important vote. It was my hope that the opportunity presented by the JPWA would be the time to fix bankruptcy scope agreements at no cost.

The JPWA brings with it NWA's outsourcing scheme. There is still time to fix it.

 

[super ed]

Fins(a.k.a John Breiling),

Are you still trying to stir the pot? Why are you representing yourself as a Delta pilot? Just for the record Ransome was stapled with many restrictions.

Ed

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Fins(a.k.a J*** B******),

Are you still trying to stir the pot? Why are you representing yourself as a Delta pilot? Just for the record Ransome was stapled with many restrictions.

Ed

"Ed"---while you're posting people's full names (or who you are accusing them of being anyway), why don't you go ahead and post YOUR full name tough guy?

 

[Superpilot92]

In order to achieve large contractual gains we need two things, a strong and profitable company and a unified pilot group. Neither the Delta pilots or NWA pilots have that today. We need to get there.

This JCBA gives us all the best chance to get there in the shortest time.

This isn't about kumbaya and playing nice with each other, not that there is anything wrong with that, this is a business decision which happens to be a win-win-win for all of us.

The best furlough protection you can have is a profitable and growing airline, by capturing the value of this merger sooner, rather than later, it gives us all the best opportunity to work for a growing and profitable airline.

I don't see any cons to this JCBA, it provides equity for all of us, contract improvements and parity for all, and a superior SLI process agreement that gives us all the best chance to achieve a fair and equitable seniority list.

No other pilot group has ever accomplished what the DAL/NWA pilots have on the front end of a merger. Just my 2 cents.

Great Post!! Agree 100%

 

[super ed]

"Ed"---while you're posting people's full names (or who you are accusing them of being anyway), why don't you go ahead and post YOUR full name tough guy?

Did I touch a nerve? Is that you Mr. Ford?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins(a.k.a John Breiling),

Are you still trying to stir the pot? Why are you representing yourself as a Delta pilot? Just for the record Ransome was stapled with many restrictions.

Ed

Special Ed,

Congratulations, you scored 25%. The embarassing part for you is that nearly 100% of the folks on this board know the answer to 3 out of 4 statements that you boned up.

You are correct about Ransome and I think it serves as a model for one way that Delta pilots could take back their flying and make their scope stronger.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I thought Joe Merchant was JB. Will the real JB stand up????

 

[Flyer1015]

It pains me seeing the jumbo RJ's running around all the airports that both DAL and NWA have given up in recent years.

I see that also, why is that? Completely short-sighted IMHO. SCOPE is extremely important and needs to be captured asap.

You two weren't singing this tune when you were RJ pilots!

But now that you're ex-RJ pilots, and now mainline drivers, you scream bloody murder about RJ flying and scope.

 

[Superpilot92]

I said the same thing when i was an "RJ" pilot so your attempted flame is worthless. Your embarrassing yourself by acting like a crybaby.:bawling:

 

[Flyer1015]

I said the same thing when i was an "RJ" pilot so your attempted flame is worthless.

I'm sure you did. I'm sure you did, indeed!

And the second your regional job would have been threatened by scope, you would have raised bloody he!! like none other.

Your embarrassing yourself by acting like a crybaby.:bawling:

Hahaha, funny.

 

[Superpilot92]

I'm sure you did. I'm sure you did, indeed!

And the second your regional job would have been threatened by scope, you would have raised bloody he!! like none other. Wrong, i always pushed for CAL to keep the 50 seat scope language. Next



Hahaha, funny What are you the grammar police .

Why have you suddenly flooded the NWA and DAL threads spreading you BS?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

You two weren't singing this tune when you were RJ pilots!

But now that you're ex-RJ pilots, and now mainline drivers, you scream bloody murder about RJ flying and scope.

Actually, I was singing that tune when I was an RJ pilot. It always ticked me off flying with guys foaming at the mouth over getting 76 seaters. They would always get a lecture on why the larger the airplanes the regionals fly, the fewer top tier jobs there will be.

 

[Flyer1015]

Actually, I was singing that tune when I was an RJ pilot. It always ticked me off flying with guys foaming at the mouth over getting 76 seaters. They would always get a lecture on why the larger the airplanes the regionals fly, the fewer top tier jobs there will be.

Remind me again which pilot group allowed Compass to be formed?

Keep in mind that Mesaba getting 36 new CRJ-900s is simply a replacement for the 69 seat Avros they used to have. So, there is no 'net' change for the "large" RJs at Mesaba.

As far as Pinnacle goes, to this date, they fly only 50 seat CRJs for NWA.

Which brings us to Compass..... explain to me who (which group) 'okayed' Compass to exist and the terms of its existence? Hint... not Pinnacle, not Mesaba.......

 

[~~~^~~~]

Economically, the Avro was irrelevant. The CRJ900 is a DC9 slayer.

Compass is an alpa sanctioned alter-ego. That should be NWA/DAL flying.

 

[Flyer1015]

Economically, the Avro was irrelevant. The CRJ900 is a DC9 slayer.

Shame on you! Have you no respect, sir?

Compass is an alpa sanctioned alter-ego. That should be NWA/DAL flying.

A-G-R-E-E-D-!!!!!

 

[PCL_128]

Fins(a.k.a John Breiling)

Damn, that's one hell of an insult! Fins is not JB.

 

[PCL_128]

You two weren't singing this tune when you were RJ pilots!

But now that you're ex-RJ pilots, and now mainline drivers, you scream bloody murder about RJ flying and scope.

I don't know Superpilot, but I've known PeanuckleCRJ for several years. His opinions about RJs have always been the same. Just because you fly an RJ doesn't mean you have to agree with the outsourcing bulls---.

 

[Superpilot92]

That should be NWA/DAL flying.

Careful you once were a "RJ" pilot and saying such things will get you a crybaby post from Flamer1015. :bawling:

Alot of us have continually spoken out about not allowing any further outsourcing of flying to the regionals, even when we were at the the regionals, and for whatever reason that just chaps Flamer1015's a$$. Why is that Flamer? :angryfire

I find it ironic that as soon as the new contract got voted on he flooded the NWA/DAL topics with his flames.

 

[Superpilot92]

I don't know Superpilot, but I've known PeanuckleCRJ for several years. His opinions about RJs have always been the same. Just because you fly an RJ doesn't mean you have to agree with the outsourcing bulls---.

Agreed and I assure you I have always had the same stance. When i was with XJT i was always a proponent of CAL keeping their 50 seat scope limitation even though that meant XJT couldn't at the time get bigger planes. The more flying that is farmed out the less amount of jobs there are at the Majors meaning less positions for everyone, including flyer1015.

The majors should have put it ALL on one ticket to begin with and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Had that been done it would have meant higher career earnings for ALL pilots and quicker longevity rises on the mainline pay-scales. If your not part of solution your part of the problem.

 

[Flyer1015]

The majors should have put it ALL on one ticket to begin with and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Had that been done it would have meant higher career earnings for ALL pilots and quicker longevity rises on the mainline pay-scales.

Ahhhhhhhhhh, finally something I agree with 100%. You can search my previous thread history if you wish to see exactly my point regarding this outsourcing back in the 90s when the RJs first came out.

I like you now.

 

[Superpilot92]

Ahhhhhhhhhh, finally something I agree with 100%. You can search my previous thread history if you wish to see exactly my point regarding this outsourcing back in the 90s when the RJs first came out.

I like you now.

Thats been my stance all along which is why i dont know why you pitched a fit about anything i said previously. Glad we are on the same page now. Carry on