Enough is Enough!

[1folinepilot]

Yeah, airplanes that weren't broken.
And why do you care so much about 70 people that are not you. Aren't you supposed to be more selfish than that?

Skanza, You are a complete jackass! I will never forget the airplane you left me that you flew in with several grounding items that you chose to dump on me so you could go home on your day 9 airlines. When I called you out on the items, your exact quote was "It wasn't broken for me" It is obvious that you care for nobody but yourself! Go run to teabag the first MGT sack you can find as you have no friends out on the line!

 

[Narrow Bridge]

Dear FLOPS management,

While I understand your desire to see the union go away, I must say that you're going about it all wrong.

First of all, it is too obvious when you post here as a "first time poster". In this instance you did try a plausible story with "I've been lurking for a long time and have to speak up now". Okay, but your join date is posted at July 2008 so right there your busted.

Second, every post alludes to the same two goals. Abandon your leadership and stop paying dues. It sort of reminds me of the movie Saving Private Ryan. The part where they're marching through a town and the Germans are broadcasting on a megaphone, "The Statue of Liberty is Kaput!" It just makes you look stupid.

If you want to get rid of the union, and I know you do, then all you have to do is fly around the world real fast in a Westerly direction to make time back up. I saw this first hand in a movie and am confident it will work. Once you go back in time you can then treat your pilots nice. That's all, nice. Like, you could pay them industry standard. Not LEADING...no, that's too much. Just standard will do.

You could treat the crews with respect. They don't need penthouse suits or stretch limos. They also don't need endless screwing with on the road. Remember the Golden Rule? When you're applying work rules think of that.

If by some chance you're unable to make the "fly fast West" thing work then you're left with three options. Go get a CBA, quit and let some other management team get a CBA, or fire everyone and quit...close the doors and tell all the owners that the moneys all gone and their planes just lost 70% of whatever value they had as the market just got flooded, all over a stupid CBA.

Good luck to you.

I'm not telling anyone to stop paying dues, I pay my dues and I think that alot more people should than actually do. I do however think that my union should represent me and whats best for all of us, not just follow the agenda of the national IBT.

 

[waka]

Well guess what, I'm not from managment. I'm just someone who supports our union but is starting to feel like they are being influenced a litte to much by someone else and I'm no longer sure they have our best interest in mind.
I have talked to Mat and Rick and I'm just getting a little tired of no one caring to hear my concerns, they just give me the standard answer and tell me to trust them. I've been trusting them for 2 1/2 years now.

Do you pay dues? Do you work OT? Do you fly airplanes with known discrepancies?

I know that BT was the one dragging his feet for most of this time but now it looks like they want to settle this.

Of course they want to settle this......for peanuts! Also, nothing for the 70 hostages.

I want to see some results. If our current leadership can't close the deal there are other people who would not hesitate to give someone else a chance.

You call that management offer "results"? Did you even see it? Do you really want to settle for the first scrap that management throws at you? Nobody is that stupid and naive so, I don't buy your BS. You can report back to management that your efforts here are futile. Make sure they reimburse you for the $10 FI sign-up fee.

 

[netjetwife]

Glass, while I have no problem giving NB the benefit of the doubt, I do think there's some very good advice in your open letter to FLOPS management. Hopefully, they'll give it the consideration it deserves.

 

[Narrow Bridge]

Do you pay dues? Do you work OT? Do you fly airplanes with known discrepancies?

Yes I pay my dues, I don't work OT because I don't want to not because someone tells me I shouldn't. When the plane breaks I write it up.


Of course they want to settle this......for peanuts! Also, nothing for the 70 hostages.

I don't think their bullet point offer was peanuts.
Why don't we know anything about what our counterproposal was?


You call that management offer "results"? Did you even see it? Do you really want to settle for the first scrap that management throws at you? Nobody is that stupid and naive so, I don't buy your BS. You can report back to management that your efforts here are futile. Make sure they reimburse you for the $10 FI sign-up fee.

Why dont you come up with something else other than accusing everyone with a different opinion of being someone from managment. Frankly, it's getting old.

Think for yourself and quit being a blind follower.

 

[netjetwife]

Guys, as hard as it is to believe that some of your fellow pilots would try to talk you into settling for scraps, I personally experienced that very thing while the NJ folks were in negotiations. I had an upset, frightened ..Oh please don't rock the boat...wife call me on the phone and accuse me of trying to make her husband lose his job because I was posting here against the POSTA. Every group has people afraid of change and selfish ... I'm making enough for ME .. types who will try to get you to accept the crumbs they throw at you to see if you'll take it and shut up. I got emails from the selfish, senior wife... wanting to know why we couldn't all live out in the sticks where things were cheap like her family did...:erm:

You just have to drag them along with you to a better life. And no, I never heard back from either one after their husbands ended up making far more than they would have if they had caved in at the first hint of a contract. Typical. Just keeping moving forward; there's light at the end of the tunnel. NJW

 

[ProFracPilot]

Think for yourself and quit being a blind follower.

This door swings both ways, NB. How about answering my question posed to you earlier in the thread: When was the last time you addressed your concerns or questions DIRECTLY to our union leadership? I don't mean on the IBT board, I'm talking one-on-one. Honestly. Any member of the leadership team would be happy to talk with you one on one. And being the dues-paying member you are, all the more reason to talk DIRECTLY to THEM.

PM me and let me know how the conversation goes. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Narrow Bridge]

Guys, as hard as it is to believe that some of your fellow pilots would try to talk you into settling for scraps, I personally experienced that very thing while the NJ folks were in negotiations. I had an upset, frightened ..Oh please don't rock the boat...wife call me on the phone and accuse me of trying to make her husband lose his job because I was posting here against the POSTA. Every group has people afraid of change and selfish ... I'm making enough for ME .. types who will try to get you to accept the crumbs they throw at you to see if you'll take it and shut up. I got emails from the selfish, senior wife... wanting to know why we couldn't all live out in the sticks where things were cheap like her family did...:erm:

You just have to drag them along with you to a better life. And no, I never heard back from either one after their husbands ended up making far more than they would have if they had caved in at the first hint of a contract. Typical. Just keeping moving forward; there's light at the end of the tunnel. NJW

I'm the last person that would say we should settle for scraps. But I would like to know why I heard "the union wouldn't accept our offer" and not something like, "the union's counter proposal on pay was way to high" or somehting like that.

Did we even make a counter proposal? It's funny how all sorts of all other confidential information gets leaked out but now all I hear is crickets from our leadership.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Did we even make a counter proposal? It's funny how all sorts of all other confidential information gets leaked out but now all I hear is crickets from our leadership.

COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR LEADERSHIP! Don't get on an anonymous board and start whining about negotiations. As we've learned over this past weekend, All FlOps pilots - now more than ever - need to be talking to and asking questions of our leadership.

Give it a try.

 

[netjetwife]

I'm the last person that would say we should settle for scraps. I was just reporting what I've seen and why I don't automatically assume that every odd man out is from management. But I would like to know why I heard "the union wouldn't accept our offer" Because it was not a real offer. It was a classic example of "divide and conquer" and your negotiators understood that. I can't stress enough that the tactical use of FUD is commonplace among management. F&H, a union-busting firm, sits across the table from the pilots. not something like, "the union's counter proposal on pay was way to high" or somehting like that. Be assured that F&H gives the company a script to follow and its designed to manipulate the pilotgroup. To put it bluntly, they're playing minds games with you--deliberately. Read Confessions of a Union Buster by Martin Levitt and you'll have a greater understanding of what's going on.

Did we even make a counter proposal? ...

You're going for the industry standard and they have known that all along. Negotiations are supposed to take place at the bargaining table until there's a full TA for the pilots to asses. The pilots will further their cause by insisting that management follow proper procedures. My husband was part of both the 2005 CBA and the 2007 IBB amended CBA NJ contract teams and he does not consider what you saw from management to be a bona fide offer. I know it's been a long 2.5 yrs, but to cave now after coming this far would be a huge mistake and a terrible shame. Good Luck!
NJW

 

[WabiSabi]

Why dont you come up with something else other than accusing everyone with a different opinion of being someone from managment. Frankly, it's getting old.

Think for yourself and quit being a blind follower.

Like others, B19, Skanza et al, you're the one that sounds like a brainless regurgitating parrot. It is you that needs to formulate your own thoughts.

As for your question; After Black Friday, there is no middle ground. You're either with the union or with management, period. They fired the dastardly shot. Now is the time to stick together more than ever and your divisive propaganda is only a disservice to solidarity. A different opinion is one thing. A true dues paying member that wants a fair contract would take any issues up with the leadership privately or on the IBT board, not exposing dirty laundry to the public and in management's eyes. However, with your post and "timely" registration on FI makes it obvious that you're not with the union and never were. You're only here to weaken solidarity and I don't buy for a second that you're legit.

 

[nomore]

Nb

Why would the 1108 make a counter proposal to something that wasn't anywhere near a contract. Bullet points do not a contract make. Our negotiators have thick binders of legal language, the kind that contracts are made of ready to hand across the table. Bullet points are propaganda and you and your ilk fell for it. Crickets right now is the way to go. When you buy a car do you tell the salesman you love the car and just gotta have it? I don't think so. This is the same thing only with much greater consequences. If the negotiating committee came out and said "Here's our plan and what we are doing SHHH! don't tell anyone from management" what do you think would happen? Yeah about a nano-second later it would be sitting in BT's office. You gotta trust someone and I choose my Union over Shawn S and his band of dopes.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Do they still check all personal info against credit cards used to join these days? Awful lot of "new" posters crawling out from under rocks this week.

 

[netjetwife]

Good post, Nomore! WS, there's a lot of truth in what you said, as well, but I don't see how it hurts to give people the benefit of the doubt...as long as ..you set them straight and continue to hold the line. If NB is legit you're going to need his vote. There are going to be some late arrivals to the front that have to be briefed. Education wins the day. Just saying....
NJW

 

[fracjack]

Get real

NB is bs. Anybody really believe a dues paying pilot with a brain has not kept informed? You think a koolaid drinker or management puke would tell you the truth of who they are? My guess would be a Marker.