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UAL - shut down completely?

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contrail67 said:
It is cheaper to cut before a merger dude. Don't be surprised if they merge after the cuts...I do believe CAL is cutting too....as most Legacy airlines are. If CAL did not want anything to do with UAL then then would not enter an alliance. They do realize that if they do not join a structured alliance they may not be at the table....just how it goes.
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Well, there's no crystal ball here, but I don't think this is merger mania. I think it's a desperation move to survive, period. UAL doesn't have any planes that are remotely fuel efficient. Those 737's are just the least fuel efficient. I also think it's just the beginning. It's a matter of time. And we joined Star because we didn't have a choice. We aren't going to help DL or NW, so what's the choice? We needed an international player and someone that has Pacific routes. We'll feed off UAL till they die and then take what's important. Sorry, just what I think.
 
whatitdoing? said:
Well, there's no crystal ball here, but I don't think this is merger mania. I think it's a desperation move to survive, period. UAL doesn't have any planes that are remotely fuel efficient. Those 737's are just the least fuel efficient. I also think it's just the beginning. It's a matter of time. And we joined Star because we didn't have a choice. We aren't going to help DL or NW, so what's the choice? We needed an international player and someone that has Pacific routes. We'll feed off UAL till they die and then take what's important. Sorry, just what I think.
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What an optimistic outlook. You won’t be offended if us UAL folks don’t have quite a dire opinion.
 
Peanut gallery said:
We are hitting trigger points faster than anticipated. the big boys will preserve enough cash for the preset exit strategy.
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So you're saying Chapt 11 soon or straight into a Chapt 7?

The Corporates and 135 boys have had enough of 121 guys for awhile.
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Yeah, they find our attitudes leave a little to be desired at times and that we tend to get lost too easily.
 
ACL65PILOT said:
Colonel Savage said:
So you're saying Chapt 11 soon or straight into a Chapt 7?

Over here at DAL they seem to think that the demise of UAL is immanent. Not sure where they are getting that info, but they are very confident in it.
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...that may be true...but Delta also counted on USAir going out after 911...Their strategy was based on it....
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True, and a buy out or a merger may change the playing field once again.
The only problem with that is two repeat two carriers have backed away from a deal with them. When due diligence is done and both parties get to look at the books, it makes you wonder what was seen...
 
ACL65PILOT said:
True, and a buy out or a merger may change the playing field once again.
The only problem with that is two repeat two carriers have backed away from a deal with them. When due diligence is done and both parties get to look at the books, it makes you wonder what was seen...
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On the second one who backed away from who. Usair was reffered to as a "toxic stew." Even our boneheaded management could see that was a cluster....... That is in no way a slam on USAir putting them together was a causing the problem.
 
Agreed, but you must admit that this "Global Alliance" that you and CAL have put together stinks. Something is amiss here. Either you will merge or CAL is merely placing themselves for the eventual bone picking. I hope the former. I have many friends over at UAL that will hit the streets for the second time in ten years. The first one was not pretty, so I cannot imagine what this one will look like.
 
I admit that I have been wrong before, but I am right more times than I am wrong.

This one seems to have the writing on the wall. AAI has some very unsettling things going on over there. As you know. DAL is bleeding you to death matching you guys seat per seat on price and killing you doing it. Along those lines they will never let you have the MKE market. The guys over here are a different lot than DAL has ever had before. Good for us bad for the rest. (Enough of the threat hijack)

UAL is a position to continue to sell assets if it feels it needs to, fact is that there come a time where that will not come close to solving the woes. I am not sure if the government will let UAL go, but who knows. It is an election year and 50K jobs gone is never good press for anyone.
 
I think Delta and NWA shed alot of jobs too....correct? About 4000? How is the alliance with CAL such a bad thing?
 
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contrail67 said:
I think Delta and NWA shed alot of jobs too....correct? About 4000? How is the alliance with CAL such a bad thing?
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It's more like Continental joining STAR alliance which happens to have United in it. United is gaining almost nothing because it's not merging. It is bad because there is a likelyhood Continental positioned itself to gain at the expense of United. Furthermore, it's more important to note that Continental joining the alliance makes other strong partners more comfortable because now they have an insurance if United sinks even further below what they consider United as global partner representing North America. Just imagine in NRT with NWA/DAL and JAL/AA, then ANA without an alliance partner which they sign up for in STAR. At the same time, they (namely Lufthansa) gained access to NYC (Continental in EWR) and be able to compete with SkyTeam and DL/NW/AF/KL stuff for trans-atlantic. Gotta look at the big picture. It's a win-win for everybody except United.
 
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There is wishfull thinking and then there is reality. I'm sure Walmart wants Target to die. Yes, of course Delta wants United to die. I agree that if UAL starts a large selloff of it's int'l route structure that may guarantee your wish. Until then are you completely sure that the true financial situation at DAL is absolutely superior to UAL? Just last night didn't the UAL MEC Chairman say the UAL furlough numbers were a complete "overreaction" by the company? I remember some pretty bold talk from the Independance Air CEO a few years back regarding UAL as well.
 
RJAA said:
It's more like Continental joining STAR alliance which happens to have United in it. United is gaining almost nothing because it's not merging. It is bad because there is a likelyhood Continental positioned itself to gain at the expense of United. Furthermore, it's more important to note that Continental joining the alliance makes other strong partners more comfortable because now they have an insurance if United sinks even further below what they consider United as global partner representing North America. Just imagine in NRT with NWA/DAL and JAL/AA, then ANA without an alliance partner which they sign up for in STAR. At the same time, they (namely Lufthansa) gained access to NYC (Continental in EWR) and be able to compete with SkyTeam and DL/NW/AF/KL stuff for trans-atlantic. Gotta look at the big picture. It's a win-win for everybody except United.
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So..United agreed to this knowing everyone was in a win win situation except United.....sounds like you have something personal against United. I don't buy your arguement...if you can even call it that.
 
I THINK the whole new alliance is a way for CAL to sell tickets on aircraft they don't/can't fly. Its just another way around scope. Thats what I think.


UAL going out all together...doubt it. Thats what I think.
 
There's no sense in arguing with a Delta pilot if Delta is ok financially. Remember, they get hired, then they're sent to some sort of reprogramming building where they come out speaking 'robot'. Delta's financial picture isn't great either. And if they think that this merger will be the cure, they're smoking crack. NW needed a dance partner and they got it. And if Delta guys don't think that a furlough is coming, well.....you speak 'robot' anyway.
 
contrail67 said:
So..United agreed to this knowing everyone was in a win win situation except United.....sounds like you have something personal against United. I don't buy your arguement...if you can even call it that.
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I am sorry I don't wish misfortune on anyone. But you have got to ask yourself. It is no secret United has a management team who are just not interested! For the past two years, every other words out of Tilton's mouth were merge! merge! merge! instead of polishing their very fine own operation with tremendous potential (more assets than Continental I might add) to turn to huge profit, instead of focusing on how to be more efficient, but just sitting around screwing around with Ted until the planes got old with no future orders. Pretty much everyone else considered United as a merger partner, and a couple of them very seriously and walked away. You have got to be kidding yourself if you don't believe that this was United's last resort to have Continental join STAR. United is like a girl who you would never ever marry but would love to be in bed. United was desperate to marry, but her time ran out.
 
RJAA said:
I am sorry I don't wish misfortune on anyone. But you have got to ask yourself. It is no secret United has a management team who are just not interested! For the past two years, every other words out of Tilton's mouth were merge! merge! merge! instead of polishing their very fine own operation with tremendous potential (more assets than Continental I might add) to turn to huge profit, instead of focusing on how to be more efficient, but just sitting around screwing around with Ted until the planes got old with no future orders. Pretty much everyone else considered United as a merger partner, and a couple of them very seriously and walked away. You have got to be kidding yourself if you don't believe that this was United's last resort to have Continental join STAR. United is like a girl who you would never ever marry but would love to be in bed. United was desperate to marry, but her time ran out.
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....and maybe they realized through the "merger" talks that it will be better to merge AFTER cuts are made...it is cheaper to do it that way. I hope you do understand that United is not the only one cutting back. Almost every legacy is in some way. Obviously CAL did walk away from the merger from United but they still were talking...thus the alliance. In my opionion, if a merger is going to happen in the end...it is the smartest way to do it. United's time has not run out.
 
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Everybody is cutting back but it's a cold fact that the first legacy airline that sinks will save everybody else. I can tell you it won't be Delta. It probably won't be Continental. Why merge if you see in the books that it may not be saved in the current economics. The better alternative is to position itself closer and let the nature take it's course.
 
A major point you all are missing – Barack Obama, a democrat who resides in Chicago and a Illinois Senator, is not going to let UAL, a Chicago company and employing thousands, go Chapter 7, if he is elected.

It very well may be UAL’s ace-in-the-hole.

Now if McCain gets in, then all bets are off.

Good luck to all of us!!

AA767AV8TOR
 
RJAA said:
Everybody is cutting back but it's a cold fact that the first legacy airline that sinks will save everybody else. I can tell you it won't be Delta. It probably won't be Continental. Why merge if you see in the books that it may not be saved in the current economics. The better alternative is to position itself closer and let the nature take it's course.
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you are correct...I hate to see any airline go out but I really don't think it will be UAL,DAL,AMR,CAL,or NWA. There are weaker ones....but you are right.
 
whatitdoing? said:
There's no sense in arguing with a Delta pilot if Delta is ok financially. Remember, they get hired, then they're sent to some sort of reprogramming building where they come out speaking 'robot'. Delta's financial picture isn't great either. And if they think that this merger will be the cure, they're smoking crack. NW needed a dance partner and they got it. And if Delta guys don't think that a furlough is coming, well.....you speak 'robot' anyway.
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Heh. I think the correct term is "Deltoid" not, robot.

Let the "Deltoidinfication" begin . . . beep . . . beep.
 
AA767AV8TOR said:
A major point you all are missing – Barack Obama, a democrat who resides in Chicago and a Illinois Senator, is not going to let UAL, a Chicago company and employing thousands, go Chapter 7, if he is elected.

It very well may be UAL’s ace-in-the-hole.

Now if McCain gets in, then all bets are off.

Good luck to all of us!!

AA767AV8TOR
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What do you think Barack will do? Get out his personal ATM card and head to his personal bank and cover all the fuel costs and 777 leases?

Give me a break. The President can't "let" or "not let" an airline die if that is what the free market system has in store for it.

Tilton got how many zillions in stock options? His attitude from the ivory tower towards the line worker is how rosy?

That is what I thought. Tilton is the exact type of CEO that Barack has in his gunsites.
 
satpak77 said:
What do you think Barack will do? Get out his personal ATM card and head to his personal bank and cover all the fuel costs and 777 leases?
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Watch him. It’s called using the “Tax Payers Money.” No way will a senator living in Chicago let his own hometown airline die if elected President.

Being a democrat, there will be tremendous pressure on him to either bailout or re-regulate the airlines.

It’s a different story with McCain.

AA767AV8TOR
 
AA767AV8TOR said:
Watch him. It’s called using the “Tax Payers Money.” No way will a senator living in Chicago let his own hometown airline die if elected President.

Being a democrat, there will be tremendous pressure on him to either bailout or re-regulate the airlines.

It’s a different story with McCain.

AA767AV8TOR
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First of all, if elected, Obama will only be the President...not the King. So any proposals he puts forth will have to be voted on by the Congress...Same goes for re-regulation. It ain't gonna happen just because Obama wants it to.

And if you think they will "rubber stamp" anything coming from Obama....look up the Clinton HealthCare plan and how they tried to get that through with a Democratic majority in the House and the SEnate.

Likewise, look and see how President Bush's proposal to overhaul Social Security went over....with a Republican majority in both the Senate and the House.

Additionally, a Senator from Chicago may not want to see his hometown airline go out of business, but he alone doesn't have the power to keep that from happening. Not doubt, he will get some "pushback" from the Texas delegation, who would like to see more of their constituents get recalled at AA....knowing that a UAL BK ( or worse) would result in increased service at ORD by AA....no way they would support a "bailout" for the Chicago hometown airline.

Remember, he's got to get a whole lot of Senators to go along with him...or it just won't happen.
 
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