Management threatens NPA again!

[twepilot]

basically boiled down to a large segment of pilots that wouldn't have been able to vote on a new contract..

RV

 

[Lear70]

This is no longer just a water cooler rumor. It was confirmed during the npa conference call today. So now along with the threat of being furloughed we have the threat of being fired outright. Anyone know of a good aviation contract lawyer if this happens?

The company already has one of the best labor law firms in the country working on this and other, related issues.

What I smell is a status quo violation filing with the National Mediation Board if negotiations don't go well this week. This would be in addition to the injunction that the NPA would file to restrict the company from actually firing those probationary pilots until the legality of it could be heard in front of a labor law judge.

There's already 2 or 3 other things the company is doing that constitute a status quo violation; they're just stacking up but, like I said on the conference call, the company doesn't do anything without thinking 4, 5, or even 10 steps ahead, planning on the macro scale (years in advance), then figuring out what to do on a micro scale (month by month) with contingency plans. They've already played out the scenarios and probably feel that they'll either:

A. Get away with it and the pilot group won't throw a sabo party,

B. Get everyone scared enough to get a concessionary deal rammed through, or at least get their training staff protected, or

C. Won't get a concessionary deal, will be restricted by a Federal Judge from implementing the probationary pilot terminations/training center retentions and will then file reorganization bankruptcy, implement all the contract changes they want under "operational necessity", and still get away with it.

the NPA passed a ruling after 9/11?? that probies pay dues after 90 days. BUT, are still on probation until the anniversary date of your initial check ride or your first PC, whichever occurs first.

Not exactly how it went or when or why but, what the probationary pilots got in exchange for dues paying was voting rights on T.A.'s and contracts; I'm not aware of any other major carrier that has that right.

Is it worth paying full dues just to have a vote? Only you can decide that. Personally, I felt it was worth it when I was in that boat, but that's just me. YMMV

 

[Lowrider717]

Where'd you get the 60 days notice, all I see is 14 days required? ???
...

"A pilot who is to be furloughed will be notified by the Company by certified letter, RETURN RECIEPT REQUESTED or telegram (reply requested) of such furlough at least fourteen (14) days prior to its effective date. If the Company fails to give such notice, the pilot will be paid one month’s pay in addition to those set forth in Paragraph 5 of this Section, in lieu of such notice. A copy of the furlough and recall notice will be furnished to the Association President. "

 

[PCL_128]

I don't have my contract handy, but I think the 60 days notice is to the NPA, not to the individual pilots.

 

[BR715]

I'm sorry guys, but I'll be the one to say it. The retired training instructors need to go first. Even if it means the company firing the first year guys and gals. I understand first year pilots will be mad at me for saying this but right now this is not a good place to work for anyone on the seniority list. The only way to make it a good place is to first build a union that the company and its pilots actually respect. Respect will bring us training department positions for line pilots, respect will bring us bargaining power at the negotiating table. And the most important is that the pilot group will have confidence that our union leadership can make the hard decisions that will effect this pilot group in a postive way for many years to come instead of this sick cycle of folding on every hand.

 

[Biodegradable]

I'll second that BR, and I am on probation.

 

[PCL_128]

I'll second that BR, and I am on probation.

I actually think most of the probies agree.

 

[Lear70]

Where'd you get the 60 days notice, all I see is 14 days required? ???
...

Got the two mixed up.

WARN act notice is required 60 days prior to laying off more than 50 employees at a time... HOWEVER... just reading the WARN act briefing sheet (not the full letter of the law), it appears that there is a loophole whereby if the number of layoffs at a single site does not exceed 33% of the total number of employees at that site (it's not a Plant closing and it would have to be more than 500 total people including ground workers, f/a's, etc and I don't think it will be that many), then the WARN act doesn't apply.

http://www.doleta.gov/layoff/pdf/WorkerWARN2003.pdf

"A pilot who is to be furloughed will be notified by the Company by certified letter, RETURN RECIEPT REQUESTED or telegram (reply requested) of such furlough at least fourteen (14) days prior to its effective date. If the Company fails to give such notice, the pilot will be paid one month’s pay in addition to those set forth in Paragraph 5 of this Section, in lieu of such notice. A copy of the furlough and recall notice will be furnished to the Association President. "

That's the only thing in the contract I can find also. So, it'll be interesting to see what the company does. If they're really interested in scare tactics, WARN letters will come out for maximum time exposure prior to September.

If they really are going to just terminate/furlough, we might not know anything about it until mid-August.

One might not necessarily mean the other, either. The company uses FEAR a lot more than any other airline I've ever seen, they hate sharing their plans with "the little people", and they plan things like this out, so you can be guaranteed they already know what they have in mind.

p.s. Back up in post #32, I meant the NPA has contracted with a labor law firm, not the company. Couldn't get to the edit button in time.

Good luck to all!

 

[8v8tr]

Time for a FLY SAFE CAMPAIGN!!!!

Not a fan of ALPA, but how do you think the company would handle these issues if we were ALPA and had there legal team?

This is complete BS for a company to TERMINATE, just to keep the 15 or so retired guys on board!! I had some respect for this company until I listened to the conference call last night, now I have none!!

Some food for thought, if we get terminated vs furloughed, there is no unemployment, no cobra, ect. And on every future application you fill out you must put that you have been FIRED!! Complete BS!!

Now is the time for this pilot group to Sh.T or get off the pot. If we let the company push us around like this, then we all will lose. I don't care if you are number 1 on the list or number 1683. The time is now.

 

[27 driver]

I think we need to take some of the emotion out of this for now and think it through clearly. There is a lot more then just the probies (which I am one of them) that are affected by this. I understand furloughs are part of the business. But terminations are undeserved. I don't know where we stand on any of this legally, but management hasn't officially (in writing) said any of this yet. I think we should stay as calm as possible until the cards are delt. It looks like there will be a reduction in force. How we as a group handle all this will determine if it is furloughs (recall rights) or terminations. (nothing)

Hoping for the Best

 

[Lear70]

I think we need to take some of the emotion out of this for now and think it through clearly. There is a lot more then just the probies (which I am one of them) that are affected by this. I understand furloughs are part of the business. But terminations are undeserved. I don't know where we stand on any of this legally, but management hasn't officially (in writing) said any of this yet. I think we should stay as calm as possible until the cards are delt. It looks like there will be a reduction in force. How we as a group handle all this will determine if it is furloughs (recall rights) or terminations. (nothing)

Hoping for the Best

I'm confused...

How will the way "we as a group handle all this" determine whether the company uses furloughs or terminations to accomplish their reduction in force?

Do you mean to say that you will welcome an LOA that allows the instructors to remain on property so you can get furloughed rather than terminated? Because that's the EXACT reaction management is hoping for out of FEAR.

You're going to be out ANYWAY. Furlough or Termination. That's why it is vitally important NOT to give them relief; somehow, someway, the company MUST understand that they cannot just steamroll the pilot group into anything management wants by fear and intimidation.

I have 2 friends that this will affect and, believe me, I don't want to see anyone terminated rather than furloughed with recall rights, but you have to ask yourself: "Will the company risk the outright WAR with the pilot group, media circus, and National Mediation Board action by following through on an illegal termination en masse of pilots?"

That's a lot of potential lawsuits, not to mention the HUGE negative press, associated dive in stock price, plus making sure that NO QUALIFIED pilot EVER applies to AirTran again or, at least, for the foreseeable future. They went through that once already where they were practically begging people to work here (late 2000 / early 2001) - it wasn't pretty.

You're right, people DO need to remain calm, see what happens, but be prepared to fight the hard fight. How you face this will be something you always remember throughout your life... do you want to remember it as facing the fire without flinching or on your knees begging for your job? (this isn't directed specifically at you 27 driver, but to everyone in general).

Time for everyone to do a little backbone check... and I'm speaking from experience on this one.

 

[27 driver]

I'm confused...

How will the way "we as a group handle all this" determine whether the company uses furloughs or terminations to accomplish their reduction in force?

Do you mean to say that you will welcome an LOA that allows the instructors to remain on property so you can get furloughed rather than terminated? Because that's the EXACT reaction management is hoping for out of FEAR.

You're going to be out ANYWAY. Furlough or Termination. That's why it is vitally important NOT to give them relief; somehow, someway, the company MUST understand that they cannot just steamroll the pilot group into anything management wants by fear and intimidation.

I have 2 friends that this will affect and, believe me, I don't want to see anyone terminated rather than furloughed with recall rights, but you have to ask yourself: "Will the company risk the outright WAR with the pilot group, media circus, and National Mediation Board action by following through on an illegal termination en masse of pilots?"

That's a lot of potential lawsuits, not to mention the HUGE negative press, associated dive in stock price, plus making sure that NO QUALIFIED pilot EVER applies to AirTran again or, at least, for the foreseeable future. They went through that once already where they were practically begging people to work here (late 2000 / early 2001) - it wasn't pretty.

You're right, people DO need to remain calm, see what happens, but be prepared to fight the hard fight. How you face this will be something you always remember throughout your life... do you want to remember it as facing the fire without flinching or on your knees begging for your job? (this isn't directed specifically at you 27 driver, but to everyone in general).

Time for everyone to do a little backbone check... and I'm speaking from experience on this one.

Lear,
I am not saying bend over and take it. What I am asking of all our group is to think their decisions through and not take an F$%K them attitude. We all have to look at where the industry is right now and be realistic. My tone could be taken as concessionary, but that is not what I am saying. I just want everyone to take a deep breath and be realistic.

 

[Lear70]

Lear,
I am not saying bend over and take it. What I am asking of all our group is to think their decisions through and not take an F$%K them attitude. We all have to look at where the industry is right now and be realistic. My tone could be taken as concessionary, but that is not what I am saying. I just want everyone to take a deep breath and be realistic.

I understand what you mean, but I simply believe there's a difference between a "F**K them" attitude and "Standing up for your rights".

Realistic expectations are to be furloughed. Fair expectations are to be furloughed.

Bend-over-and-take-it attitude is, in my opinion, "Give them what they want and hope they'll let us be furloughed instead of fired outright".

But everyone is different... I simply don't do "bend over" very well. Would rather be forced out of this profession than live my life like that. I will always find a way to feed my family, even if I have to go sell lumber at Home Depot (at least it's a steady paycheck and I get to be home every night). I may have my dreams and aspirations crushed by AirTran, but I'll be D*MNED if I'll do it on my knees.

YMMV. :beer:

 

[27 driver]

I understand what you mean, but I simply believe there's a difference between a "F**K them" attitude and "Standing up for your rights".

Realistic expectations are to be furloughed. Fair expectations are to be furloughed.

Bend-over-and-take-it attitude is, in my opinion, "Give them what they want and hope they'll let us be furloughed instead of fired outright".

But everyone is different... I simply don't do "bend over" very well. Would rather be forced out of this profession than live my life like that. I will always find a way to feed my family, even if I have to go sell lumber at Home Depot (at least it's a steady paycheck and I get to be home every night). I may have my dreams and aspirations crushed by AirTran, but I'll be D*MNED if I'll do it on my knees.

YMMV. :beer:

I am not disagreeing with you Lear. I just don't think that we can walk into negotiations and dictate everything we want and think it will happen. Negotiations are just that, we start in one place, they start in another and meet in the middle. I just want people to stay calm for now and not get so pumped up from all the rumors and speculation that their judgement gets clouded. I can realistically expect to be fuloughed and I know this. I do want something good to come back to. Good luck and hope to cya on the line somewhwere and have some beers.
tailwinds

 

[Colonel Savage]

There are other companies that also have instructors that are not line pilots, UPS and SWA come to mind. Is AAI 's training dept set up similarly?