Flexjet Pilots, Let's Get It Together

[JokerFuel]

Have you noticed the decline in our Hotels? How have your crew-meals been lately? The company has yet to address our rest issues.How many bogus focus groups have to be formed creating the illusion of self help? What about our baseing issues? We don't even have a true Industry comperable overtime schedule! How many more issues are waiting to be honored? How long are you willing to wait? If you haven't sent in a card, why wait? You know where to go. Ask any Netjets pilot, Union is the answer. Its a great job, but it could be the best job. Do your part to make it so.

 

[DirtyBeech]

Sorry Joker, it just ain't gonna happen. Take our recent pay raise and combine it with the current economic situation, fuel prices trending upwards at startling rates, airlines dropping left and right, and our jelly spined pilot group and you've got a recipe for nothing happening anytime soon. Too many guys just thankful to be employed and in job protection mode right now ( and yes I realize the irony of that last statement).

Just before the raise announcement there was enough displeasure to actually get something done, but that moment was wasted by us. We have no focal point or rallying cry, and though there is a plethora of issues to be addressed we have no impetus for change.

Probably best to send in another card and settle in for the long haul until an aligning of our management's clown routine, another company's updated benefits package (a good deal for FLOPS would do nicely), and our pilot group's near laughable ire allows for a vote.

Sad but true.

 

[300pilot]

jelly spined pilot group..... nice attitude beech. With a statement like that, why not post your name and show all what an iron spine you have?

 

[DirtyBeech]

Yes, let's just all post our names. Let's do it on the union site too. I can't imagine why you chose 300 pilot instead of your real name. That wasn't an attack on individuals, but an accurate labeling of our group as a whole. Figure it out. And if I had called us weak willed instead of jelly spined would that have pegged you sensitiv o' meter? Is that the only problem you have with the post?

Now that that's out of the way feel free to provide examples of our pilot group's strong will and togetherness.



<crickets chriping>

 

[SDCFI]

Wha?

Joker - Maybe it's just me, but things have only gotten better since I've been here. Hotels I'll give you, but I think the problem lies more with the travel agency we use then with the office. You are using the feedback line or talking to the FODM or ACP right? I've had them change our hotel numerous times because the FBO had a better recommendation, you just have to take the time to call it in. You've seen the dumb stuff Jepp does with our fltplans, and Universal or whoever can never get intl paperwork right, sometimes it's the vendor. Crew meals are getting better - I've noticed a definite improvement in quality. According to Tom they are working on a selectable menu for the BB, it just takes time around here. You know how efficient our IT dept is. As for rest, we now have a true rest block on no-assignment days. Ask any ACP and they'll tell you that you don't have to pick up the phone during any rest, regardless of how long it is. Sure they can call you, and I agree that should be fixed, but the bottom line is you don't have to accept anything during your rest. Or are you one of those people who bitches and moans about early calls but takes the trip anyway? If you're worried about retribution I've never seen it. I've flown with many Captains who have told dispatch/scheduling to pound sand when given a questionable assignment and the ACP always backed them up as long as they had a good reason. It's the company's job to push us as far as they can to get the trips flown, it's our job to say no when they push too far. Bases suck, yeah. How is a union going to fix that? Open more or we strike? That'll work I'm sure. A union could bring a contract yes, but contracts are a result of negotiating and compromise. What are you willing to give up to get more bases? You think they're going to give them up for free? Netjets is great yes, but for every NJA there's an Options, how's their union working out? How bout the airlines? Unions are only as strong as their members, and as DBeech said we have a lot of people here who don't care and who don't want to get involved. We couldn't get enough cards in for a vote before the raise was announced when people were the most upset, what makes you think they're going to change their minds now that the money is significantly better? Change comes from within. Your rest gets violated, ASAP it! The FAA sits in on those meetings and it seems like the new POI actually gives a fukc about it. Don't like the hotel, call it in! If it's really bad tell them you refuse to stay there for health/safety reasons, don't be afraid to put your foot down. Again, not enough people are making noise about these issues, that's why there's no changes. I see the same 10-20 names over and over on the BB, hopefully more than that are using the feedback line and personally calling their ACPs or the CP.

And for the record, yes I did send in my card.

 

[walshsfly]

Find a union that doesn't support our competition and maybe I might send something to them. Probably not a card though.

And if you think your way is the right way then post your name don't hide like you are.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Ask any ACP and they'll tell you that you don't have to pick up the phone during any rest, regardless of how long it is. Sure they can call you, and I agree that should be fixed, but the bottom line is you don't have to accept anything during your rest. Or are you one of those people who bitches and moans about early calls but takes the trip anyway? If you're worried about retribution I've never seen it.

In the three years or so that I have been here, I have never flown with a captain that did not answer his phone during rest. They all ask, "if we get called early, how much time do you need?" And now I do the same thing. I've never met a single person that actually turns their phone off. Everybody answers their phone in rest, it is the norm. I know of one guy that stayed with his parents or something, and the company went ape trying to find him. called the hotel and sent a guy to the room and everything, then he got called by the ACP the next day.

Walsh, no disrespect intended, but it is easy to be anti-union and have your name on here, but a lot more to ask a pro-union person to put their name up here. FLOPS just canned a bunch of openly union folks.

 

[GSXR600]

Joker - Maybe it's just me, but things have only gotten better since I've been here. Hotels I'll give you, but I think the problem lies more with the travel agency we use then with the office. You are using the feedback line or talking to the FODM or ACP right? I've had them change our hotel numerous times because the FBO had a better recommendation, you just have to take the time to call it in. You've seen the dumb stuff Jepp does with our fltplans, and Universal or whoever can never get intl paperwork right, sometimes it's the vendor. Crew meals are getting better - I've noticed a definite improvement in quality. According to Tom they are working on a selectable menu for the BB, it just takes time around here. You know how efficient our IT dept is. As for rest, we now have a true rest block on no-assignment days. Ask any ACP and they'll tell you that you don't have to pick up the phone during any rest, regardless of how long it is. Sure they can call you, and I agree that should be fixed, but the bottom line is you don't have to accept anything during your rest. Or are you one of those people who bitches and moans about early calls but takes the trip anyway? If you're worried about retribution I've never seen it. I've flown with many Captains who have told dispatch/scheduling to pound sand when given a questionable assignment and the ACP always backed them up as long as they had a good reason. It's the company's job to push us as far as they can to get the trips flown, it's our job to say no when they push too far. Bases suck, yeah. How is a union going to fix that? Open more or we strike? That'll work I'm sure. A union could bring a contract yes, but contracts are a result of negotiating and compromise. What are you willing to give up to get more bases? You think they're going to give them up for free? Netjets is great yes, but for every NJA there's an Options, how's their union working out? How bout the airlines? Unions are only as strong as their members, and as DBeech said we have a lot of people here who don't care and who don't want to get involved. We couldn't get enough cards in for a vote before the raise was announced when people were the most upset, what makes you think they're going to change their minds now that the money is significantly better? Change comes from within. Your rest gets violated, ASAP it! The FAA sits in on those meetings and it seems like the new POI actually gives a fukc about it. Don't like the hotel, call it in! If it's really bad tell them you refuse to stay there for health/safety reasons, don't be afraid to put your foot down. Again, not enough people are making noise about these issues, that's why there's no changes. I see the same 10-20 names over and over on the BB, hopefully more than that are using the feedback line and personally calling their ACPs or the CP.

And for the record, yes I did send in my card.

WELL SAID!!!!!!!!

 

[JokerFuel]

No need to be hostile here. I am simply of the opinion that management is more motivated to maximize profit at our expense. That's their job. It seems that we should have the control to influence those decisions that affect our quality of life while on the job. I would like to see the implementation of some solid policies, guaranteed not to be circumvented by need and profit. There have been changes, but many of them are more in appearance, than reality. To be truly empowered to dictate our future takes some hard and uncertain committments. I'm not some mal-content here, quite the contrary. I feel that this is a good forum for expressing those things that may not be mentioned on the company board, and a good venue to reach those that may not be on the IBT site. As it stands, and in the abstract way our policies are written. They weight heavily in the companies' favor. Those who represent the pilot group are put into the position of dictatng policy to the pilot group. Who is dictating pilot policy to management? No representation. Feedback lines and focus groups keep up appearances, but I wonder how truly effective they are.

 

[DirtyBeech]

I'm not hiding from anyone walsh. It's called Memorial Day weekend, and I had plans that didn't involve responding to internet tough guy "you know you're hiding" type remarks.

Jelly spined is too harsh for some. Apathetic, week willed, lacking togetherness is more appropriate. It's not a slam, but an accurate description. I certainly haven't been here as long as others, but in my time I've seen us do exactly zilch as a group to address some our serious issues here at Flex. As Joker mentioned, we'd rather form focus groups and let our CAB submit requests to mgt. That doesn't get me excited.

Things have gotten better, and were never bad to begin with. I've seen an increase in the quality of my catering since Air Chef's new menu was installed, though it would be nice to order the food myself. Our hotel quality is slipping. We'll see how that's handled. I think the new chief is probably going to work out well for us.

The point of the original post was to show that nothing was going to happen. The pro union group didn't strike while the iron was hot, and now that our economy and industry are slipping we're certainly in no position to address our management and issues as a collective. There are enough folks to start some noise, but apparently the raise covers all sins.

 

[walshsfly]

I'm not hiding from anyone walsh. It's called Memorial Day weekend, and I had plans that didn't involve responding to internet tough guy "you know you're hiding" type remarks.

So the weekends over, and it wasn't a time thing. Yet you still don't have an enough of a spine to state your name, but you sure can call the rest of your co-workers names. If you want so much change then be proud, stand up, state your fix, so that we may all be fortunate enough to see your greatness.

 

[FastJP4]

While I don't think calling a group as a whole "jelly spined" is very productive - the crux of that is fairly accurate. The opportunity for QOL changes was there, the momentum was there for change - but a timely pay increase seems to have satisfied the masses. Company focus and study groups are nice and all - but are they productive? I guess only time will tell - but it in general amounts to lip service unless there is positive action.

What's the old saying? "Talk is cheap.............................

 

[jackpilot]

Everyone should learn to use the Auto On/Off function of the blackberry. Auto off when you go to bed; auto on when your rest is over.

I do it every day and so do most of my crew members.

 

[DirtyBeech]

So the weekends over, and it wasn't a time thing. Yet you still don't have an enough of a spine to state your name, but you sure can call the rest of your co-workers names. If you want so much change then be proud, stand up, state your fix, so that we may all be fortunate enough to see your greatness.

It's not calling names if it's accurate. By and large, other than the three or four I've flown with who have kool-aid coursing through their veins, our pilot group wants change on the same group of issues, but isn't willing to address them other than the aforementioned study groups and every productive CAB meetings. It's not getting it done.

You want names? How many pro union guys have you seen canned at ours and other companies for revealing themselves? There's no shortage of goobers just dying to take info to the Waterview.

Personaally, I've sent my union card in, as I see it's the way to get things done here at Flex, and I have no problem calling my ACP, emaililng the feedback line, or whatever to effect what needs to be addressed. I simply chose not to waste my time with such entities as the CAB when over time their lack of producitivity has been bourne out, and that's not for a lack of trying on their part. I've found that former CAB members are often the most ardent union supporters.

Keep trying the internet tough guy routine though. You can't debate my point so you go into call out mode. Throw a rock into a pack of dogs and the one who gets hit yelps.

 

[DirtyBeech]

You know, I don't need an internet pissing match. I apologize for the use of jelly spined with regards to our pilot group, and would in fact edit it out if that option were available. It detracts from the direction of the post and was not meant to be a sticking point. It was not the most tactful way to state my meaning. Directness seems more my way than tact unfortunately. If I had used weak willed, apathetic, or lacking togetherness some wouldn't been offended, but they were and I apologize for that as well.

Heaven help me that semanctics take presidence over substance.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Everyone should learn to use the Auto On/Off function of the blackberry. Auto off when you go to bed; auto on when your rest is over.

I do it every day and so do most of my crew members.

you mean after the first 10 hours, or two hours before show time? thats the issue, which is the end of rest?

 

[Seahawk]

End of rest time

1. Assigned end of rest time when no trips.
2. One hour before airline departure.
3. One hour before departure for trip assignment. 1.5 hours before international departure.

Having your phone on before those times is voluntary.

 

[Club ORD FO]

no that is not correct. the email from TC said, in regards to an "end of rest" time - "The end of rest time should be considered similar to our current FOM policy and that it represents your next duty assignment. you are eligible for a change in your duty assignment if you have the required 10hrs rest in the past 24hrs."

so we have to answer our phones after 10 hours (or 3am if in rest at 5pm)... right? thats how i read that anyway.

 

[Seahawk]

End of rest

no that is not correct. the email from TC said, in regards to an "end of rest" time - "The end of rest time should be considered similar to our current FOM policy and that it represents your next duty assignment. you are eligible for a change in your duty assignment if you have the required 10hrs rest in the past 24hrs."

so we have to answer our phones after 10 hours (or 3am if in rest at 5pm)... right? thats how i read that anyway.

Your legal assigned rest ends at those previously mentioned times. Call your ACP and they will tell you that you are not required to answer your phone during and up to that time. Does not matter how long your assigned rest period is. If you choose to answer the phone and you have had the legal minimum rest then yes, after ten hours they can legally get you out of rest and put you on duty. I think what we are dealing with is what is legal and what I am willing to do without the risk of losing my job because I did not answer the phone. The captain has to take the lead on that subject when you go into rest and when you agree to come out of rest because they will be calling him first. Some captain's are good about it and some not and always answer their phone. A big problem is that not all understand the rest rules either. The FOM policy is that they can attempt to call you in the first two or last two hours of your assigned rest period while legally they can really attempt to call you anytime while in rest. If you do not wish to be disturbed and you need the rest then turn you phone off.

 

[bailey3083]

I was a union supporter and on the organizing committee but be careful about claiming anything as you can be fired just as fast as you were hired. Trust me.

 

[bunman45]

i believe seahawk is right about how to interpret the rest rules. you do not have to answer your phone before your out of rest time. I have also seen a decline in hotel quality recently. Nothing but holiday inn products lately. I'll never complain about the crew food though because we do get perdiem and i'm grateful for whatever free food i'm given, even if it us subpar at times.

 

[Talako]

Bunman,
The reason for the food is they don't want to give you meal breaks. To them pilots wandering off property for an hour is like herding cats.

 

[Photoflight]

To them pilots wandering off property for an hour is like herding cats.

HAH, they're probably right!

 

[walshsfly]

It's not calling names if it's accurate. By and large, other than the three or four I've flown with who have kool-aid coursing through their veins, our pilot group wants change on the same group of issues, but isn't willing to address them other than the aforementioned study groups and every productive CAB meetings. It's not getting it done.

You want names? How many pro union guys have you seen canned at ours and other companies for revealing themselves? There's no shortage of goobers just dying to take info to the Waterview.

Personaally, I've sent my union card in, as I see it's the way to get things done here at Flex, and I have no problem calling my ACP, emaililng the feedback line, or whatever to effect what needs to be addressed. I simply chose not to waste my time with such entities as the CAB when over time their lack of producitivity has been bourne out, and that's not for a lack of trying on their part. I've found that former CAB members are often the most ardent union supporters.

Keep trying the internet tough guy routine though. You can't debate my point so you go into call out mode. Throw a rock into a pack of dogs and the one who gets hit yelps.

Internet tough guy? I have already debated this subject enough, and I am tired of guys coming to work here that know its a non-union shop and then they want to change it. If you want to work at a union shop then go work for one. The fact that its not was a big reason for me coming here. I have work for union shops before and so far I am happy here, things have only gotten better since I started and I agreed to the way things were when I started. Could thing be better YES. Will they get better YES. Do we need a union to make it happen I don't think so.

If you want things to get better, don't whine on here call someone that matters. You want changes then get involved. If your not involved with the company to make things better, then you have nothing to complain about. And if your already are, then why are you on here bitchen.

 

[DirtyBeech]

walsh,
I detailed the steps I have taken to be proactive. I will not get involved with the study groups or the CAB. There's a reason there aren't longtime CAB members. People get tired of the futility. I don't need to quote the definition of insanity.

Whining about "whiners" always amuses me. I didn't come here to whine, but replied to another poster about how the last union drive stalled. The whining didn't start until a few people got their girl parts in a strain.

I came from a non union shop before this. Good job. This one's better, and yes things have gotten better, but you can't view that in a vacum of company good will. I'm sorry that your previous union job sucked, but I won't delude myself into believing that pilots making phone calls in ones and twos will get things done here. I've watched it long enough to know better.

The leader in our industry has a union and does quite well with it. The bottom dweller has one too and are in one ugly dog fight over their contract. I would like to think our management isn't quite as bad as the latter groups. I didn't want to be a part of unionized company until I came here, and saw some of the flagarant crap (do I really need to detail it?) that goes on here.

Feel free to quit bitchin' about those who weren't bitchin' in the first place.

 

[jackpilot]

you mean after the first 10 hours, or two hours before show time? thats the issue, which is the end of rest?

My typical method is auto ON after the first 10 hrs. I'm not looking to rock the boat to such an extreme that all the passengers are fearful. This business model is a very fluid one and I can appreciate that. I know changes happen overnight and I'll try to put myself in a position to help out. If however I'm too tired, I'm too tired.

The way I try to look at most any situation at Flexjet is how will my actions impact the future of this company...negatively or positively? My plan is to make Flex my home until retirement. So, I'm looking to do what's best for our owners. If me waking up a little earlier than planned will get them where they need to be due to changes that I had no control over, I will do all I can, "within FAA rules", to help out.

However, I have never allowed anyone to contact me 2 hrs prior to the first 10...like the FOM says the company "can" do. All phones are off and/or off the hook. For all intents and purposes, I'm uncontactable. Unless of course you come banging on my door, at which point I'll be calling hotel security.

These are my thoughts on the subject until new verbage is placed in our FOM.

Thanks Guys.

 

[Pacific]

For the most part I agree with Jackpilot, but believe we do need more defined rest rules with better guidance from the company. The rules now are way too flexible in scheduling's favor and leave the crews guessing on how to rest and prepare themselves for the next assignment....probably not the safest way to operate. Flexjet is a good company and we offer a great product but there are some issues that need addressing and in my opinion rest is at the top of the list.