NWA Phantom retirements

[~~~^~~~]

Just like I thought, lower seniority FO pissed he will be moving quite a bit backward. Mergers suck, sorry.

You are writing the cold, hard, truth. Mean while your junior FO's are eagerly hoping for dynamic seniority as they bid into a whole lot bigger and higher paying fleet.

IMHO, if we are going to make adjustements for dynamic seniority, then we must also make adjustments for aircraft size and paychecks. The ratio slotting then gets complicated and contentious.

Relative seniority might roughly balance the two factors. Still, it is a win/win for the NWA new hires.

 

[JAM-BRO]

Stop posting the same stuff... We used to have 440 planes and had 6400 pilots. Now we have 325 planes and 5200 pilots. Same end result as u guys... Lost overr 100 ac and 1200 pilots. Moot point...

Yet AGAIN, when we retired our 2000 or so senior Captains, we also parked our MD11s, 767-200s, 737-200s, and 737-300s. Our seniority progression after the retirements was minimal. How would your guys do if you right now parked all of the DC9s and 742s? You are NOT taking into account the loss of airplanes that likely will go away on your side. We shouldn't have to take a hit for your old planes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[123]

Come on guys, this kind of bantering between who has the newest airplanes, best bases, etc etc is silly and taking away from what we really need to be working on. Each airline serves a different mission and frankly, I think that each is particularily good at "their mission". We need to be working as a group in order to make both companies combine into one very successful market mover. The 100 seat aircraft is great for the heartland strategy. Yes, it really is and the heartland has a lot of high paying revenue generating passengers, just like the 767s fit nicely on some domestic and international routes.

If we could quit fighting with each other as to what position we should be playing, we will see that management has moved the ball down the field and is about to score (against us!).

 

[Superpilot92]

Come on guys, this kind of bantering between who has the newest airplanes, best bases, etc etc is silly and taking away from what we really need to be working on. Each airline serves a different mission and frankly, I think that each is particularily good at "their mission". We need to be working as a group in order to make both companies combine into one very successful market mover. The 100 seat aircraft is great for the heartland strategy. Yes, it really is and the heartland has a lot of high paying revenue generating passengers, just like the 767s fit nicely on some domestic and international routes.

If we could quit fighting with each other as to what position we should be playing, we will see that management has moved the ball down the field and is about to score (against us!).

Agree 100% :beer:

 

[DTW320]

I noticed you qualified it with -50s.No, I responded to the specific airplane that YOU compared. Reread your post. . There are still quite a few -30s to be accounted for and 15 years was generous there.You weren't referring to -30's with your 15 year comment. The -50s have the same cockpit and versions of the JT8D as the -30s are are still a generation older than 1980s aircraft. DL retired the DC-9-30s in 1992. The 737-200/300, 767-200, MD-11, as well as the 727s and L1011s have all gone since 2000.
And yet without the DC-9's NWA's average fleet age is = or younger than DAL's. With them the difference is less than 4 years.

I know NW retired the 72s (Champion), DC-10s, and old 74s, and sold the MD-80 subfleet. Kudos for keeping 100 seat flying on property. You'd be a much smaller pilot group without it. Having some 125 seat -50s with a common cockpit as the 105 seat -30s may have saved it. It doesn't change the fact that those airplanes will be (and would have been regardless of merger or scope) squarely in management's crosshairs. If the merger is approved, it's up to the combined group to protect itself there. The threat of having to ground RJs en masse won't scare them a bit.Thanks to DALPA's scope clause which doesn't dis-incentify the company one bit for parking them.

.......

 

[tomgoodman]

On advice of our attorneys....

...the note was payable in the event the pension was terminated, but is not FOR the terminated pension....

The note was for concessions given in LOA 51. Pension termination was not part of LOA 51. There was a reason it was worded that way, and anybody taking the stand will say the same thing.

Yes, there was a reason it was worded that way: to avoid giving retirees a legal claim for a share of the note. And yes, all those in on the deal who take the stand will stick to their story. But it was a payoff for not opposing the pension-dump, and everybody knew it.

 

[PuffDriver]

Wouldn't you agree then that the career earnings is a "potential"? how do you know that future paycuts and furloughs are not going to happen?

I don't. The PID is a single day. The day of reckoning, if you will. Aircraft on order as of that day will count, options will not. People on furlough that day will be held in abeyance, people not on furlough will not, if I hold an ER captain bid, it will count, if I am 1 number away it will not. All of this maybe retirement, coulda, would shoulda is just red herring fodder.

Please explain the logic here. How does a frozen or terminated DB plan play into an arbitrators decision on seniority lists...I think I smell a red herring...

The NWA pilots have, the Delta pilots do not. It is one of the things that will not be given parity, yet the DC WILL be given parity. THAT is why your guys will stop retiring, and that is something that has worth, and will be exchanged by an arbitrator for seniority.

 

[PuffDriver]

Yes, there was a reason it was worded that way: to avoid giving retirees a legal claim for a share of the note. And yes, all those in on the deal who take the stand will stick to their story. But it was a payoff for not opposing the pension-dump, and everybody knew it.

Whatever. I guess that you are under the assumption that the guys who cut and ran should have been able to backfill after creating the mess. Is that what you are saying?

It is THEY who left this mess for US to clean up with regard to scope, pay, etc. I don't feel sorry for them at all.

 

[800Dog]

Nope, the damage was done in the contract prior to my arrival. Since then I have been a staunch advocate of turning it around, but I am only 1 vote. How many seats does Compass allow? What is the weight of that aircraft? Why did we have to amend our scope to ALLOW for that aircraft? Questions, questions. Red herrings, red herrings.

I am glad that you take so much fervor in being senior to somebody and putting them down about it. Those kinds of attitudes tend to come around and bite you in the posterior.

While you poke our scope, we poke your rates, and scoff at your idea of "premium" widebody flying. You are a joke, and are grasping at straws and resorting to attacks on a personal level, as you have no leg to stand on any other way. The arbitrator will see through that as well. As I said, next!!

I am on your seniority list dumb***! Once again, if you were hired in the late 90s, much damage was done since your arrival in terms of scope. Stop trying to rewrite history sport!! Remember, NWA guys are in OUR UNION!!!!!!!!

 

[MJ42]

I am on your seniority list dumb***! Once again, if you were hired in the late 90s, much damage was done since your arrival in terms of scope. Stop trying to rewrite history sport!! Remember, NWA guys are in OUR UNION!!!!!!!!

Hey Puff, you lost a lot of credibility. Both a current and a retired(Tom G) DAL proving you wrong.

 

[Superpilot92]

I am on your seniority list dumb***! Once again, if you were hired in the late 90s, much damage was done since your arrival in terms of scope. Stop trying to rewrite history sport!! Remember, NWA guys are in OUR UNION!!!!!!!!

Great post!!

above in red is the most important part!!:beer:

 

[ThisistheDream]

I see it coming down to DOH with at least a 5 yr fence so then the age 65 retirements starts kicking in to move career expectations forward for everyone. Yeah for now NWA would have some more senior guys on top since the senior DAL took and early out but for only around 5 yrs then they will have to retire which will give the DAL guys all thier seniority right back and at the same time all the DAL guys move up quicker since they benefit from NWA retirements but the NWA guys will be able to fly larger equipment to off set some seniority and all will be happy. This way both sides give and gain. It would be nice to have your cake and eat it too, but in the long run the career expectations will be brighter for everyone invloved.

 

[MJ42]

I see it coming down to DOH with at least a 5 yr fence so then the age 65 retirements starts kicking in to move career expectations forward for everyone. Yeah for now NWA would have some more senior guys on top since the senior DAL took and early out but for only around 5 yrs then they will have to retire which will give the DAL guys all thier seniority right back and at the same time all the DAL guys move up quicker since they benefit from NWA retirements but the NWA guys will be able to fly larger equipment to off set some seniority and all will be happy. This way both sides give and gain. It would be nice to have your cake and eat it too, but in the long run the career expectations will be brighter for everyone invloved.

I could deal with that, but it may hurt GL's career expectations:

Originally Posted by Metro752
You gonna fly those 747s?

Eventually, YES.

Bye Bye--General Lee
__________________

 

[PuffDriver]

Hey Puff, you lost a lot of credibility. Both a current and a retired(Tom G) DAL proving you wrong.

Um, yeah, sure whatever. Not really.

Two dissenting opinions accepted at face value as proof...fascinating leap of logic

 

[PuffDriver]

I am on your seniority list dumb***! Once again, if you were hired in the late 90s, much damage was done since your arrival in terms of scope. Stop trying to rewrite history sport!! Remember, NWA guys are in OUR UNION!!!!!!!!

Sorry I bruised you fragile ego, but you are the dumb***. The 50s were the catalysts. Every one since then is the same rating. There were a bunch on the property before I got here.

It was the camel's nose. I do not agree with ever increasing the level of them, but am one vote. RJ drivers are also in our union. What say you of that, genius?

What does scope have to do with this thread anyway, and did you vote yes to any of C2K, LOA49, LOA 51?

1 person is but 1 vote.