Southwest is buying somebody...or something

[Donald]

Donald, this is only partially accurate. If the fuel dept. (or whatever it is) closed it's doors and they all went home, then yes, our hedges would run out. But our hedging position is always evolving. Rewind to our hedge forcast from just a few years ago: according to that, we should have run out by now!

Your right, I'm not sure what our current hedge position is.

 

[asaflyer]

Well as a 3 or so year FO at AAI I can say that my wish, if we were to merge or whatever, would be that SWA bought us and we canned our whole managemet staff. Leave BF and a few others for board and vice type stuff. Our upper level guys have been great in the past but they still don't compare to SWA guys. I would of course want a fair intergration of some sort. What about a SWA, AS and AAI combo.

By the way, I do hate the SWA guys.

Hate that they make a ton more than me and are home alot more. I'm one of those crazy guys that likes working hard if it means more time at home. I guess it helps that I love my wife and kids

 

[canyonblue]

Personally, 6 legs a day with 20 minute turns is past my "happy" point as well, even though I understand what you're trying to do with "efficiency" and getting more time at home.

By definition, you'd end up with 11 hour duty days, 8 hours of flying, and 13 hours in the hotel just to keep it inside FAR limits, and I'd come home beat up and needing a day to recuperate if I did more than 2 days of that.

Some people work differently than others under that heavy of a schedule, and I prefer working somewhere where it's not the norm.
:beer:

The exact reason I hope we never merge with another airline. Too many pilots out there who still think this is 1976, and they can make big bucks while being as unproductive as hell. Or this might just work out well if we do merge, we can watch all of these guys quit SWA because they couldn't "recuperate".

Personally, I don't know how all you guys do 11+ hour duty days. Not for me anymore, thank God.

 

[PCL_128]

Personally, I don't know how all you guys do 11+ hour duty days. Not for me anymore, thank God.

I can't remember the last time I had an 11+ hour day. Typical is about 8 hours.

 

[Lear70]

The exact reason I hope we never merge with another airline. Too many pilots out there who still think this is 1976, and they can make big bucks while being as unproductive as hell. Or this might just work out well if we do merge, we can watch all of these guys quit SWA because they couldn't "recuperate".

Personally, I don't know how all you guys do 11+ hour duty days. Not for me anymore, thank God.

Whoooaa... easy there, killer. Have some decaf, let me clarify for you, then re-read what I wrote.

I have just shy of a dozen good friends at Southwest, guys I worked with before, guys I go to church with, etc. I see their schedules from time to time and, here's the kicker,

I DON'T LIKE DOING 6 LEGS, 50 MINUTES TO 1:20 PER LEG, 20-25 MINUTE TURNS, 4 DAYS IN A ROW.

I am well aware that not ALL the pairings are like that, but at least half of their pairings are, and I'd be wanting to trade out of those LIKE THE PLAGUE.

2nd point you misunderstood. I don't do unproductive either. Neither does airTran. My ideal trip is to jumpseat in on day 1 about 9:00 in the morning, noon report, do a 2 hour leg, 40 minute turn, 2 hour leg 40 minute turn (grab dinner), 1-2 hour leg, duty off around 8:30, and go to the hotel for 14 hours.

Get up, work out, get breakfast, report at 10:30 or so, do one 2 hour leg back into base, 40-50 minute turn, leisurely grab a little lunch, 3 hour flight out, get in about 7:00, 14 hour overnight, get a nice dinner and have fun with crew. Get up the next day, 3 hour flight back in, then a 2 hour out-and-back, get in about 7:00, grab the 8:00 flight home, get home about 9:00 p.m.

3 days, worth 18 hours, 6 hours of block per day, turns quick enough to be productive but slow enough to grab some food if you want and not have to swallow it hold or eat it at altitude cold, 4 days off. Throw one 4 day in the middle with 5 days off afterwards, you have about 80 hours credit, 17 days off, and the easiest flying I have ever done anywhere else, average 6 hours of flight time per day.

That doesn't sound all that inefficient to me, and certainly not one 2 hour leg to the outstation for 5 hours of credit (although I've picked those up from time to time for the free money, they've eliminated most of them).

3rd: They're not 11+ hour days, they're about 9. Somehow, I don't think you're flying more than 6 hours of block without more than 8-9 hours of duty, either, including duty on and duty off times.

Now, before you go off again, I'm well aware of how Southwest's pay works on the trips for pay method, that you'd credit more time than straight block like us, that shorter trips still credit higher, and that you guys make more money than straight block, which is why some guys like the higher-frequency days.

That's GREAT! Good for you. I'd like the higher pay, too, just not at the expense of flying a lot more legs. It's called "different strokes for different folks". The only thing I'd change for airTran to be like Southwest is to match your hourly pay rates, hotel policy, and have your management team's outlook on how to treat your employees and teach our guys the best way to hedge fuel (I can dream, right?)

I'm not bashing you, I hope you guys continue to do great. Why do you feel the need to bash us, Canyon?

We can all coexist. Just sit back, realize you make almost double what our pilots make by seat and longevity, that your management realizes your valuable addition to your company and treats you accordingly, and that you don't have to worry whether anyone else likes your setup or not, and all will be OK... I promise.

:beer:

 

[PCL_128]

Great post! Agree 100%.

 

[cole]

Lear70, Didn't you try to get on at SWA a couple of times?

 

[airlinepilot]

There is clearly alot of misconceptions and kool-aid going on here. But one thing is true, and no, before you get your panties in a wad....I am NOT saying AIR TRAN is a bad place to work. But, I know a number of pilots here at SWA that worked at Air Tran....and they have told me how much better "everything is at SWA". Now, I don't think there are any guys or gals that left SWA to go to Air Tran.

 

[Lear70]

There is clearly alot of misconceptions and kool-aid going on here.

Probably. No one really understands how trips really work at someone else's airline.

But, I know a number of pilots here at SWA that worked at Air Tran....and they have told me how much better "everything is at SWA".

No doubt. It's nice to get treated like a professional, not to mention like an adult.

Now, I don't think there are any guys or gals that left SWA to go to Air Tran.

Likely not...

Yeah, I tried a few years ago to get on with SWA, had 5 internal letters of rec, but also a former Chief Pilot who pretty much trashed me in the background check (according to friends who checked up on it).

That Chief Pilot is no longer chief pilot; was fired for racial discrimination. An interesting piece of work, that guy, but I digress...

Haven't re-applied at SWA since. They had their chance to hire me. Didn't do so. And I have no urge to work for someone who doesn't see my merits the first time around, much less a second.

I wish the Southwest employees nothing but the best, especially since I have a lot of friends working there, and the money would absolutely be nice, but I liked airTran, looking forward to getting back when grievance is done, and don't have any urge to jump fence to Southwest at all.

FedEx would be another story, but I miss freight.

Like I said... "different strokes..."

 

[Dude]

For the record, only a small percentage of our trips have 6 or 7 legs anymore. It's hardly half as you previously mentioned. That may be what you were told, but it is incorrect these days. Most our trips are three-days and an average of three-four legs per day. I fly out of DAL and do more legs in a week than a lot of our guys at other bases do in a month, by choice. We have spread the luv around a little and there are some heavy legged trips elsewhere but still mostly in DAL.

Personally, I like short legs, frequency and the LBB, MAF, ELP, HRL overnights. I can work all the way up to regs or be semi-retired. The freedom is cool.

 

[ASADFW7]

You work at SWA and you get paid to work. It is a nice balance. You have flexibility in bidding along the way too, even for Dude!

 

[slaquer5]

There is clearly alot of misconceptions and kool-aid going on here. But one thing is true, and no, before you get your panties in a wad....I am NOT saying AIR TRAN is a bad place to work. But, I know a number of pilots here at SWA that worked at Air Tran....and they have told me how much better "everything is at SWA". Now, I don't think there are any guys or gals that left SWA to go to Air Tran.

Now thats good . JMO

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Actually there is one. I have not met her but she was at SWA for a good number of years and now is at AT. I will not even attempt to post the reason because what I got was probably 4th person. But I am sure it was not for the pay bump.

 

[ASADFW7]

Leaving SWA for AT is like going from Nascar to the Nationwide series. Now that is some funny...

 

[slaquer5]

Actually there is one. I have not met her but she was at SWA for a good number of years and now is at AT. I will not even attempt to post the reason because what I got was probably 4th person. But I am sure it was not for the pay bump.

Not making through training does NOT count working at SWA......

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

No sh*t...

I'm going to smack you silly, boy... talking about merging with AMR...

You need a reasonable suspicion drug test.



Seriously, I'd love SWA pay, but you guys work too dang hard. I'm all about doing 3 legs, going to the hotel for 16-18 hours in a nice place, having a nice dinner, getting up and working out, having a nice breakfast, then go do 3 legs again, for about 4 days, then go home for 4 or 5. 18 days off a month crediting 80 hours. Don't see many lines like that when my SWA buddy is showing me the pairings.

I can do that...Give one three day away, Have 18 days off and 80 or so trips for pay! Done....BUT, Yes, "WE WORK HARD", It's called productivity, I have a three day that pays 27, don't think you'd see that many places, I go home and get left alone! Just how I like it!!!
KBB

 

[bmxandjets]

I can do that...Give one three day away, Have 18 days off and 80 or so trips for pay! Done....BUT, Yes, "WE WORK HARD", It's called productivity, I have a three day that pays 27, don't think you'd see that many places, I go home and get left alone! Just how I like it!!!
KBB

exactly why i update my app every week...

 

[PCL_128]

I have a three day that pays 27, don't think you'd see that many places

I wouldn't want to see it. Way too much work.

 

[The Prussian]

Whoooaa... easy there, killer. Have some decaf, let me clarify for you, then re-read what I wrote.

I have just shy of a dozen good friends at Southwest, guys I worked with before, guys I go to church with, etc. I see their schedules from time to time and, here's the kicker,

I DON'T LIKE DOING 6 LEGS, 50 MINUTES TO 1:20 PER LEG, 20-25 MINUTE TURNS, 4 DAYS IN A ROW.

I am well aware that not ALL the pairings are like that, but at least half of their pairings are, and I'd be wanting to trade out of those LIKE THE PLAGUE.

2nd point you misunderstood. I don't do unproductive either. Neither does airTran. My ideal trip is to jumpseat in on day 1 about 9:00 in the morning, noon report, do a 2 hour leg, 40 minute turn, 2 hour leg 40 minute turn (grab dinner), 1-2 hour leg, duty off around 8:30, and go to the hotel for 14 hours.

Get up, work out, get breakfast, report at 10:30 or so, do one 2 hour leg back into base, 40-50 minute turn, leisurely grab a little lunch, 3 hour flight out, get in about 7:00, 14 hour overnight, get a nice dinner and have fun with crew. Get up the next day, 3 hour flight back in, then a 2 hour out-and-back, get in about 7:00, grab the 8:00 flight home, get home about 9:00 p.m.

3 days, worth 18 hours, 6 hours of block per day, turns quick enough to be productive but slow enough to grab some food if you want and not have to swallow it hold or eat it at altitude cold, 4 days off. Throw one 4 day in the middle with 5 days off afterwards, you have about 80 hours credit, 17 days off, and the easiest flying I have ever done anywhere else, average 6 hours of flight time per day.

That doesn't sound all that inefficient to me, and certainly not one 2 hour leg to the outstation for 5 hours of credit (although I've picked those up from time to time for the free money, they've eliminated most of them).

3rd: They're not 11+ hour days, they're about 9. Somehow, I don't think you're flying more than 6 hours of block without more than 8-9 hours of duty, either, including duty on and duty off times.

Now, before you go off again, I'm well aware of how Southwest's pay works on the trips for pay method, that you'd credit more time than straight block like us, that shorter trips still credit higher, and that you guys make more money than straight block, which is why some guys like the higher-frequency days.

That's GREAT! Good for you. I'd like the higher pay, too, just not at the expense of flying a lot more legs. It's called "different strokes for different folks". The only thing I'd change for airTran to be like Southwest is to match your hourly pay rates, hotel policy, and have your management team's outlook on how to treat your employees and teach our guys the best way to hedge fuel (I can dream, right?)

I'm not bashing you, I hope you guys continue to do great. Why do you feel the need to bash us, Canyon?

We can all coexist. Just sit back, realize you make almost double what our pilots make by seat and longevity, that your management realizes your valuable addition to your company and treats you accordingly, and that you don't have to worry whether anyone else likes your setup or not, and all will be OK... I promise.

:beer:

Golly, Lear...I don't know where to begin...it seems that you and your lap dog PCL want to fly the meat of the schedule, and leave the bones to the rest of the twerps. You know, fly all except the first five or so hours of the AM schedule, and get off on the third day about five hours before the last flights terminate. Oh yeah, fly Tues. thru Thurs....commute in/commute out on same day, including all your leisurely workouts and meals, etc...etc... Is that your view of the "union" way of doing things? I gotta admit, four day trips are not my favorite, nor were weekends, but that's part of this business, and , years of that kind of elbow grease are what put Southwest on the map. Please tell me that this diatribe of yours was just tongue in cheek.

 

[The Prussian]

Oops...it is a Monday evening...I suppose senior schedules do prevail...just get back to me when you do get a chance.

 

[momalley81]

I wouldn't want to see it. Way too much work.

He is talking TFP's. NOT flight hours.

 

[Lear70]

Golly, Lear...I don't know where to begin...it seems that you and your lap dog PCL want to fly the meat of the schedule, and leave the bones to the rest of the twerps. You know, fly all except the first five or so hours of the AM schedule, and get off on the third day about five hours before the last flights terminate. Oh yeah, fly Tues. thru Thurs....commute in/commute out on same day, including all your leisurely workouts and meals, etc...etc... Is that your view of the "union" way of doing things? I gotta admit, four day trips are not my favorite, nor were weekends, but that's part of this business, and , years of that kind of elbow grease are what put Southwest on the map. Please tell me that this diatribe of yours was just tongue in cheek.

Not at all...

In an optimized pairing generator, you'd have rolling trips with later starts (those would be the days where the early stuff is being done by those folks who are getting off and going home OR by those in the middle of their trips).

That way, over 90% of your schedule is commutable, the locals can bid the day trips that come back to base every day (and believe me, they do just that - day trips are VERY senior), and everyone wins.

But way to pick the potential negative out of it... Well-done. (that was tongue-in-cheek).

Incidentally, in my example, I'm done at 7 at night. There's not 5 hours of commuting left, I have 2 options, the 7:50 and the 9:10. Miss those, and I'm in a hotel which has happened once or twice.

Just one of those commuting things... such is life.

 

[PCL_128]

He is talking TFP's. NOT flight hours.

True, but you can't rack up that many TFPs without doing a lot of flying. I realize that the TFPs are higher than actual flight hours, but not so much so that you can credit almost 30 TFPs with only flying 20 hours. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[328dude]

Define flying a lot PCL. Is it the legs or the amount of time on each leg you're complaining about again. I can't keep up.

I have a 3 day that blocks 19.15 hours and pays 23.20 trips. 2 legs the first, 4 legs on the second and third day. Off for a week after that.

 

[PCL_128]

Define flying a lot PCL. Is it the legs or the amount of time on each leg you're complaining about again.

Both. Lots of legs or lots of block time sucks.

 

[328dude]

Ok, so what do your trips look like and pay?

 

[PCL_128]

Ok, so what do your trips look like and pay?

I usually prefer stand-up lines which are only 30-50 hours of block for a month. But when I fly regular trips, this is typical of what I'll trade out for:

Day 1:

early evening show time
3 legs
5 hours block
7 hours duty
17 hour layover

Day 2:

early evening show time
2 legs
4 hours block
6 hours duty
16 hour layover

Day 3:

afternoon show time
3 legs
6 hours block
9 hours duty
end of trip

That's a recent trip that I flew, and that's pretty typical of what I'll fly. Doesn't pay a whole hell of a lot, but I keep my budget based on only making guarantee. Anything over that is gravy.

 

[Lear70]

That's because you're lazy...

Not that I'd know anything about that.

Actually, I prefer longer legs to lots of legs in a single duty period. That way I can sit back and read for 2-3 hours...

The AOM and FOM of course.

 

[PCL_128]

That's because you're lazy...

Well, yeah. What's your point?

 

[momalley81]

True, but you can't rack up that many TFPs without doing a lot of flying. I realize that the TFPs are higher than actual flight hours, but not so much so that you can credit almost 30 TFPs with only flying 20 hours. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct.

I have a 26.9 TFP 3 day that flies 23 hours.

I can PM you the Pairing if you are interested. It's a lot of flying however being a commuter I like being as productive as possible when I am flying a trip.