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Pilots claim airliners forced to fly with low fuel

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C40_Pilot

Bored Staffer
Joined
Mar 25, 2003
Posts
48
By Alex Johnson and Grant Stinchfield
Reporters
MSNBC and NBC News
updated 2 hours ago function UpdateTimeStamp(pdt) { var n = document.getElementById("udtD"); if(pdt != '' && n && window.DateTime) { var dt = new DateTime(); pdt = dt.T2D(pdt); if(dt.GetTZ(pdt)) {n.innerHTML = dt.D2S(pdt,((''.toLowerCase()=='false')?false:true));} } } UpdateTimeStamp('633439583574530000');


As cash-strapped airlines pack more passengers on flights into ever-busier airports, pilots are filing internal complaints warning that airline cost-cutting on fuel supplies could be creating a major safety risk.
The complaints, compiled by msnbc.com and NBC News from a database of safety incident reports maintained on behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration, reveal wide-ranging concern among pilots that airlines are compelling them to fly with too little fuel.

American Airlines expects to spend $9.3 billion on fuel this year, 39 percent more than last year, said Andy Backover, a company spokesman.

FAA regulations are precise: A plane must take off with enough primary fuel to reach its destination and then its most distant alternate airport based on conditions. It must carry a reserve of 45 minutes’ worth of fuel on top of that.

But Karl Schricker, a spokesman for the 12,000-member Allied Pilots Association, the largest independent pilots union, said some pilots believed the FAA guidelines were not enough in an era when airlines are seeking to save costs by having aircraft carry the minimum fuel required. If a pilot has to stay in a long holding pattern before landing, the extra fuel can dwindle quickly.

“You don’t want to be at absolute minimum fuel and go to put the gear down and have the gear not come down,” he said.

Pilots challenged on fuel requests

Under FAA regulations, pilots have the final say on how much fuel they take on board, but they say that when they question the fuel levels suggested in their flight plans, their judgment is frequently challenged.
“Apparently, it is not uncommon for the flight dispatcher to question the captain if he feels it necessary to add fuel,” one pilot reported.

Pressure from airlines and dispatchers to conserve fuel made another pilot no longer certain whether “I, as captain, have final authority on what I deem is a minimum safe fuel load for the flight or do I not.”

Wrote a third: “It’s almost like a contest to see how far we can spread this company thin, and when an accident happens, we’ll start reintroducing the safety elements we once had.”



Great article, fully researched, total truth, it must be -- it's online, MSNBC no less.

P.S. You commercial guys don't really fly to the point where there isn't enough gas to put the gear down, do you?
 
P.S. You commercial guys don't really fly to the point where there isn't enough gas to put the gear down, do you?

I can see reading comprehension is not your strong suit. :rolleyes:

Dropping the gear at min fuel is NOT the time to discover you have a problem which will require time (fuel that you DON'T have!) to sort out. Do you understand Mr. Schricker's point now? :smash:


BBB
 
Whoops

Silly me, didn't he mean that commercial pilots are unable to lower the landing gear because there isn't enough gas on-board for the gas powered gear-putter-downer?

I'm just a USAF Cave-pilot.
 
“You don’t want to be at absolute minimum fuel and go to put the gear down and have the gear not come down,” he said.

From the public perspective.... what is 'gear'?

Is that cool gansta pilot speak for letting the "them" know who's boss?

"Sheet man, if da controlla don't let me fly my way, I'm just gonna throw da gear down! C how he like dat!"
 
Silly me, didn't he mean that commercial pilots are unable to lower the landing gear because there isn't enough gas on-board for the gas powered gear-putter-downer?

I'm just a USAF Cave-pilot.

And God forbid the pull starter for that motor should fail!
 
Silly me, didn't he mean that commercial pilots are unable to lower the landing gear because there isn't enough gas on-board for the gas powered gear-putter-downer?

I'm just a USAF Cave-pilot.

I had to look at that twice, as well...especially considering those types of gaffs are common in mainstream media stories regarding aviation.

It certainly could have been better written or said.
 
Arizona Diamondbacks:smash:


Pplughtttttt!
Please...



The Great San Diego Padres!:cool:
 
I had read this article on MSNBC before seeing it here. As I did a story attributed to Brad Holt came to mind. I have no first hand knowledge of its truth.

From time to time, captains would call him off hours (as VP of FLight Operations) to sort out a problem. He would say "Let me speak to the captain." The caller would say "I'm the captain". Then Brad would tell the captain "Then act like one."

Do dispatchers and management types pressure captains to accept less fuel than they are comfortable with? Yes - at some places more than others. Do captains have the responsibility to take off with fuel loads that are both safe and legal? Yes. If a dispatcher makes it a power contest, that is just another challenge the captain has to deal with like headwinds and and leaky lavs. Those that write up NASA reports of how they were bullied into being unsafe need to turn the airplane over to the captain on the flight.
 
It will be evident this summer when the lack of contingency fuel, along with summer thunderstorms result in more diversions.

On many dispatch releases there is a calculation for the cost of carrying extra. It is usually 24 lb/hr per 1000 lb carried on my A320. Small price to pay judged against the cost of a diversion, but some managers don't get it.

I always bring back the fuel I don't use, I promise! :-)
 
It will be evident this summer when the lack of contingency fuel, along with summer thunderstorms result in more diversions.

On many dispatch releases there is a calculation for the cost of carrying extra. It is usually 24 lb/hr per 1000 lb carried on my A320. Small price to pay judged against the cost of a diversion, but some managers don't get it.

I always bring back the fuel I don't use, I promise! :-)

Ralph,

The data I've seen disproves your theory of the diversion rates going up. The truth is diverts have been similar or decreased since the fuel conservation programs have taken hold. Enroute and/or destination thunderstorms are one of many triggers for planned fuel loads to increase.

Carrying a bunch of fuel for unforeseen circumstances makes us all feel better, and occassionally prevents a divert. Although the cost to carry the additional weight on thousands of flights a day that do not require much, if any of this fuel does not outweigh the cost of rarely heading to an alternate. This has been quantified and accepted by virtually every carrier and manufacturer. You simply won't bring all the excess fuel back. Some of the gas will go out the tailpipe enroute.

I want to be clear though. The captain's authority is the bedrock principle to ensure safe operation, and I do not debate this point. Weather trends overlooked or underestimated by an optimistic dispatcher requires more fuel. Route specific needs ignored by a dispatcher blindly sitting at a desk dictates additional fuel. Firewall Friday trying to make a commute...more gas! Company politics may dictate a few more gallons as well.

I simply do not subscribe to tankering fuel on every leg day after day. In the long-run the economic, geopolitical, and environmental impact hurts us all.

Respectfully.
 
Last edited:
By Alex Johnson and Grant Stinchfield
Reporters
MSNBC and NBC News
updated 2 hours ago function UpdateTimeStamp(pdt) { var n = document.getElementById("udtD"); if(pdt != '' && n && window.DateTime) { var dt = new DateTime(); pdt = dt.T2D(pdt); if(dt.GetTZ(pdt)) {n.innerHTML = dt.D2S(pdt,((''.toLowerCase()=='false')?false:true));} } } UpdateTimeStamp('633439583574530000');


As cash-strapped airlines pack more passengers on flights into ever-busier airports, pilots are filing internal complaints warning that airline cost-cutting on fuel supplies could be creating a major safety risk.
The complaints, compiled by msnbc.com and NBC News from a database of safety incident reports maintained on behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration, reveal wide-ranging concern among pilots that airlines are compelling them to fly with too little fuel.

American Airlines expects to spend $9.3 billion on fuel this year, 39 percent more than last year, said Andy Backover, a company spokesman.

FAA regulations are precise: A plane must take off with enough primary fuel to reach its destination and then its most distant alternate airport based on conditions. It must carry a reserve of 45 minutes’ worth of fuel on top of that.

But Karl Schricker, a spokesman for the 12,000-member Allied Pilots Association, the largest independent pilots union, said some pilots believed the FAA guidelines were not enough in an era when airlines are seeking to save costs by having aircraft carry the minimum fuel required. If a pilot has to stay in a long holding pattern before landing, the extra fuel can dwindle quickly.

“You don’t want to be at absolute minimum fuel and go to put the gear down and have the gear not come down,” he said.

Pilots challenged on fuel requests

Under FAA regulations, pilots have the final say on how much fuel they take on board, but they say that when they question the fuel levels suggested in their flight plans, their judgment is frequently challenged.
“Apparently, it is not uncommon for the flight dispatcher to question the captain if he feels it necessary to add fuel,” one pilot reported.

Pressure from airlines and dispatchers to conserve fuel made another pilot no longer certain whether “I, as captain, have final authority on what I deem is a minimum safe fuel load for the flight or do I not.”

Wrote a third: “It’s almost like a contest to see how far we can spread this company thin, and when an accident happens, we’ll start reintroducing the safety elements we once had.”



Great article, fully researched, total truth, it must be -- it's online, MSNBC no less.

P.S. You commercial guys don't really fly to the point where there isn't enough gas to put the gear down, do you?
That's only for the aircraft with Jet-A actuated systems.
 
Arizona Diamondbacks:smash:


Pplughtttttt!
Please...



The Great San Diego Padres!:cool:

Well, present records notwithstanding (the Dbacks have the best record and most homers in MLB), there is a little three game series happening in the next few days that might change your feelings just a little bit.

Just look what the Dbacks did to the Rockies....

Anyhow, I went to a Dbacks game in San Diego last year and I've gotta say that Padres fans are some of the nicest, most hospitable people in all of baseball, and your city rocks, BUT:

The Padres had better pray for the wildcard, because God loves the Diamondbacks. :D
 
Last edited:
Damn, you may have to engage the brain and start doing more fuel management and decision making.

45 minutes? We plan for 20, and are find ourselves on the ragged edge on a regular basis.
 

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