Go airlines jumpseaters to HNL

[Dan Roman]

This is going to be controversial but I'm going to put it out there. Apparently Aloha is in a pretty precarious state and, while I loath to see AQ disappear and Go continue as an inter-island carrier, it might happen sooner than later. Go has brought out extra airplanes to HNL in case. It stands to reason that they will need extra crews too. If you get a Mesa jumpseater to Hawaii please take the time and talk to him and be sure he isn't travelling on company business to do temporary flying in Hawaii. This is a clear abuse of the jumpseat and it certainly fits JO's MO. I have no problem with Mesa pilots and I will gladly carry one on personal travel anytime. But it behooves all of us not to let Mesa undermine the interline jumpseat privalages by abusing it to save money for Mesa. All I'm suggesting is to takie a few minutes to talk to the pilot and assure yourself he is not travelling on company business.

 

[Getter]

Excellent Post!!!!

 

[Freight Dog]

Thanks Dan, but it's moot now. It's over.

Air Cargo and Contract Services to continue
ALOHA AIRLINES TO SHUT DOWN PASSENGER OPERATIONS AFTER
MARCH 31, 2008, ENDING A 61-YEAR TRADITION OF SERVICE TO HAWAII
HONOLULU – Aloha Airlines announced today that it will be shutting down its inter-island and
transpacific passenger flight operations. Aloha’s last day of operations will be Monday, March 31,
2008. On that day, Aloha will operate its schedule with the exception of flights from Hawaii to the West
Coast and flights from Orange County to Reno and Sacramento, and Oakland to Las Vegas.
Code-share partner United Airlines and other airlines are prepared to assist and accommodate Aloha’s
passengers who have been inconvenienced. For more information on United’s accommodation
options, contact United at 1-800-UNITED1 or www.united.com.
Passengers who do not wish to be re-accommodated by another airline should contact their travel
agent or credit card company to request a refund.
Effective immediately, Aloha will stop selling tickets for travel beyond March 31, 2008.
The shutdown of Aloha’s passenger operations will affect about 1,900 employees.
Aloha also announced that its air cargo and aviation services units will continue to operate as usual
while the U.S. Bankruptcy Court seeks bids from potential buyers. On March 27, 2008, Saltchuk
Resources, Inc., announced its intention to buy Aloha’s air cargo business.
“This is an incredibly dark day for Hawaii,” said David A. Banmiller, Aloha’s president and chief
executive officer. “Despite the groundswell of support from the community and our elected officials, we
simply ran out of time to find a qualified buyer or secure continued financing for our passenger
business. We had no choice but to take this action.
“We deeply regret the impact this will have on our dedicated employees who have made Aloha one of
the best operating airlines in the country.
“Aloha Airlines was founded in 1946 to give Hawaii’s people a choice in inter-island air transportation.
Unfortunately, unfair competition has succeeded in driving us out of business, bringing to an end a 61-
year-old company with a proud legacy of serving millions of travelers in the true spirit of Aloha.
”We realize that this comes as a devastating disappointment to our frequent flyers and our loyal
business partners who have supported this company for many, many years.”
###

 

[ferlo]

His point is absolutely NOT MOOT. If fact, it's more pertinent. MESA hires very low time guys. Many are probably unaware of the difference between Jumpseating for pleasure, and JS for company business. Make sure they all know.

 

[Getter]

His point is absolutely NOT MOOT. If fact, it's more pertinent. MESA hires very low time guys. Many are probably unaware of the difference between Jumpseating for pleasure, and JS for company business. Make sure they all know.

EXACTLY.

 

[jonjuan]

So one can no longer jumpseat to work? I understand it's controversial, however, Mesa pilots are ALPA union paying members. REZ or PCL-thoughts????

 

[motch]

I'll bite...

While I do not condone a jumpseat war on fellow UNION pilots, I will question the reason behind allowing a jumpseat to a pilot (union or not) who had a part in undermining and causing the demise of a fellow ALPA carrier.

At some point, pilots must be held accountable for their actions. If a pilot knowingly and willfully took (or takes) a position at GO knowing that J.O. has stated his goal to lose money in an effort to put another carrier out of business, than that pilot should not be awarded the privileges of a jumpseat.
Jumpseating is a PRIVILEGE under a union, negotiated through a union.

MESA Pilots going to work for GO should plan to live there... and I don't want to hear that they can't afford it. Then you don't take the job!

I know that this post will stir up the pot, but I am just saddened to hear that ALOHA is going the way of PAN AM, EASTERN and TWA just to name a few.

Again.. the jumpseat should be used to facilitate a commute home/work. Not to save a competing company the cost of transporting their pilots from one domicile to another, or to get back and forth to a PC/recurrent.

Game on~

 

[Beetle007]

I am also missing the argument about not being able to jumpseat to work?

As much as I hate what Mesa did to Aloha, it is a big can of worms to prevent ALPA pilots from jumpseating. Didn't the ALPA president have to sign off on the Mesa contract?

Although I am fully in favor of airlines not having jumpseat agreements with non-union airlines paying below industry standard wages.

 

[ASADFW7]

The difference is being sent on TDY and being asked to jumpseat to work instead of a company purchased ticket. Further for example if you are based in DFW and the company wants to send you to LAX to pick up a plane they will positive space you to do it. They do not ask you to jumpseat on your own to pick up a plane.

In my early freight dog days I was asked to jumpseat for work all the time.

 

[jonjuan]

I'll bite...

While I do not condone a jumpseat war on fellow UNION pilots, I will question the reason behind allowing a jumpseat to a pilot (union or not) who had a part in undermining and causing the demise of a fellow ALPA carrier.

At some point, pilots must be held accountable for their actions. If a pilot knowingly and willfully took (or takes) a position at GO knowing that J.O. has stated his goal to lose money in an effort to put another carrier out of business, than that pilot should not be awarded the privileges of a jumpseat.
Jumpseating is a PRIVILEGE under a union, negotiated through a union.

MESA Pilots going to work for GO should plan to live there... and I don't want to hear that they can't afford it. Then you don't take the job!

I know that this post will stir up the pot, but I am just saddened to hear that ALOHA is going the way of PAN AM, EASTERN and TWA just to name a few.

Again.. the jumpseat should be used to facilitate a commute home/work. Not to save a competing company the cost of transporting their pilots from one domicile to another, or to get back and forth to a PC/recurrent.

Game on~

OK, so what about AA moving into DAL to ultimately put out of business, Legend airlines 6 years ago? As soon as Legend was gone, AA left. How is this any different?

 

[Dan Roman]

The difference is being sent on TDY and being asked to jumpseat to work instead of a company purchased ticket. Further for example if you are based in DFW and the company wants to send you to LAX to pick up a plane they will positive space you to do it. They do not ask you to jumpseat on your own to pick up a plane.

In my early freight dog days I was asked to jumpseat for work all the time.

Thanks, that sums it up perfectly.

 

[MJ42]

OK, so what about AA moving into DAL to ultimately put out of business, Legend airlines 6 years ago? As soon as Legend was gone, AA left. How is this any different?

You guys are missing the point. Jumpseating to or from work is ok. Jumpseating for pleasure is ok. Jumpseating on company business when Mesa is obligated to BUY you a ticket is NOT ok.

I saw it first hand when a Mesa guy, which later said he was travel to audit a Mesa station, bumped a fellow commuter because he listed first (they were same priority). Lucky for me it was an airbus w/2 jumpseats and I listed before the Mesa pilot, I was able to commute home.

It's not just Mesa, a lot of young pilots don't understand the concept of the privilege. Some of these low timers think it's a right. They weren't around when jumpseating was not allowed.

Please guy's don't let your company take advantage of your inexperience. If they need you somewhere, they need to get you there by buying a ticket.

 

[motch]

OK, so what about AA moving into DAL to ultimately put out of business, Legend airlines 6 years ago? As soon as Legend was gone, AA left. How is this any different?

Well, I don't know anything about that. But I will ask.. did the CEO state that he was willing to lose money to put the competion out of business?
Also

AA was a Legacy and was not a start up like GO.
Was Legend a carrier with a long history?

 

[PCL_128]

So one can no longer jumpseat to work? I understand it's controversial, however, Mesa pilots are ALPA union paying members. REZ or PCL-thoughts????

If I understand the original poster correctly, then he's not talking about the usual commute to work. He's talking about that POS Orenstein trying to reposition crews to Hawaii that aren't usually based there to operate flights. That's company business, not personal business. If my company wants to TDY me somewhere, then they need to deadhead me there. I won't jumpseat for it, and neither should any Mesa pilot. If they do try, then CAs should educate them on why they aren't supposed to abuse the jumpseat in that manner, and deny them boarding. The jumpseat is never to be used for official company business except for line checks.

 

[motch]

Another question...

While I understand almost everyone within ALPA has jumpseat agreements with everyone else.
But here's the thing.

MESA and their jumpseat agreements were set up when MESA was only a feeder. Now MESA has a division called GO Airlines. Purely a stand alone carrier. Should a new jumpseat agreement be negotiated?

 

[MJ42]

Another question...

While I understand almost everyone within ALPA has jumpseat agreements with everyone else.
But here's the thing.

MESA and their jumpseat agreements were set up when MESA was only a feeder. Now MESA has a division called GO Airlines. Purely a stand alone carrier. Should a new jumpseat agreement be negotiated?

You may be reading too much into the original post.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

OK, so what about AA moving into DAL to ultimately put out of business, Legend airlines 6 years ago? As soon as Legend was gone, AA left. How is this any different?

Youre right General. It is no different and equally eggregious.

 

[PCL_128]

Another question...

While I understand almost everyone within ALPA has jumpseat agreements with everyone else.
But here's the thing.

MESA and their jumpseat agreements were set up when MESA was only a feeder. Now MESA has a division called GO Airlines. Purely a stand alone carrier. Should a new jumpseat agreement be negotiated?

If you think one should be renegotiated, then you should talk to your jumpseat chairman. I think it's ridiculous, though. The Mesa pilots aren't to blame for this.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

At some point, pilots must be held accountable for their actions. If a pilot knowingly and willfully took (or takes) a position at GO knowing that J.O. has stated his goal to lose money in an effort to put another carrier out of business, than that pilot should not be awarded the privileges of a jumpseat.
Jumpseating is a PRIVILEGE under a union, negotiated through a union.

MESA Pilots going to work for GO should plan to live there... and I don't want to hear that they can't afford it. Then you don't take the job!

Game on~

I don't think there's an idiot out there who would admit to taking a job to sink another carrier, especially if he or she is asking a captain for a ride on their jumpseat, but maybe you would, I don't know.

A pilot should plan to live at domicile, huh? May I ask if you have always lived at your domicile. What about those who you fly with? Do you deny the jumpseat to other pilots who commute to a place that has a high cost of living, like, say, New York, LA, San Fran? It stinks what happened to Aloha, but where was your support for them when go! went into business there? I don't remember seeing ALPA picketing or crying out injustice while they were out there.

I think the company management does have a say as to who rides on their jumpseat too. Don't turn this into a union war, Aloha and Mesa Air Group pilots are both card carrying ALPA members. You don't like what Mesa did, neither do I, but I'm not going to punish a pilot for what his management.

 

[Dan Roman]

You may be reading too much into the original post.

Thank you also, you are exactly right. I tried to make it clear (and at least some of you got it!) That I wasn't advocating turning down Mesa guys from your jumpseat. I thought I made it clear that I was only saying to be on the look out for Mesa MANAGEMENT abusing the interline jumpseat privalages by trying to get Mesa pilots to Hawaii for temporary duty at Go. Of course you can't be sure if the pilot lies to you, but in some cases you may be able to prevent jumpseat abuse by Mesa, not the individual pilot.
How can I be any clearer and how can anyone disagree? IT IS AN ILLEGAL MISUSE OF ALL OUR JUMPSEAT PRIVILAGES IF A COMPANY TELLS A PILOT TO USE SOMEONE ELSES JUMPSEAT ON COMPANY BUSINESS!

 

[pilot772]

Another question...

While I understand almost everyone within ALPA has jumpseat agreements with everyone else.
But here's the thing.

MESA and their jumpseat agreements were set up when MESA was only a feeder. Now MESA has a division called GO Airlines. Purely a stand alone carrier. Should a new jumpseat agreement be negotiated?

Hmmm well although it is a stand alone operation it is the same operating certificate and even the same pilot list. By your argument you would want a new jumpseat agreement for the branded expressjet flying, great lakes, and big sky (when they were operating as there own brand for EAS flying) Understandably pilots are upset at the demise of Aloha, but a jumpseat war is not whats needed.

 

[Lear70]

For the record, yes, what happened here is basically the same thing that AA did in DAL. They even reconfigured the aircraft to compete on the same business plan that they were using.

As soon as they were out of business, the aircraft were reconfigured to regular seating configuration and the pulled out of Love Field.

If memory serves, they got warned off by the Feds for "questionable predatory practice" but no fines or penalties ever arose.

Personally, I don't have much positive to say about taking an F/O job at a regional, period, much less going to work for J.O., except maybe you'd get to play with his daughter... Hopefully karma won't come back to bite you for knowingly taking a job at sub-par wages and that price advantage being used to deliberately drive someone out of business.

I'm sad to see Aloha go... Good luck, ladies and gentlemen. Hope you land softly and in good company.

 

[AQ PILOT]

Aloha guys...I gotta tell you, it was a brutal day today. What a way to wake up after spending a night with my avatar <--------- watching the lava flow into the ocean on the Big Island and then wake up to a phone call telling me there was going to be 'the announcement' in twenty minutes.

Hustled to the KOA airport where everyone that worked for AQ was understandably distraught. It never ceases to amaze me how classless some of the TSA people can be. One guy wouldn't let me thru security...don't ask...after a brief discussion of his mother's questionable heritage I had to go stand in line to get a 'boarding pass' for the jump... Naturally, when I went thru X-ray he pulled my bag for extra special service. Seriously, I busted up laughing, at that point it was just funny ;0)

Lots of sad faces at AQ. Damn FA was crying, that was hard. Sweet girl. Then the one thing that really really really upset me, and I kid you not, was a go! jet that pulled in. The Captain (pretty sure, he was out of rock throwing range so I couldn't see three or four stripes) walked off his RJ and put both hands over his head like he had just won the superbowl. That hurt.

I know he's just one bad apple in the bunch and he is not a fair representation of ANY pilot group, but that just stings. Definitely don't withhold jumpseats guys. Most of the guys at Mesa are just doing what we all did trying to further our careers, working where management tells them to.

But if anyone happens to bump into the go! crew that landed in Kona around noon today, find out which one thought he just won the Thrilla in Manilla and kick him right square in the nuts for the 3,500 Aloha Employees that are out of work tonight.

 

[big shacks]

Deny the jumpseat, infection control.

 

[motch]

I have not advocated a Jumpseat war...

But during my time at the regionals, I did carry a scab list along with a list of pilots from an Alter Ego airline that my own company started. I would have had no problem denying anyone on the lists js. Oh, and I DID commute.

I am also not advocating that everyone needs to live in base. Again, I commuted at the regional level but now no longer do. Commuting is something people choose to do based on WHO will hire them.

But I will go on record to say that IMO, MESA (both management AND pilots) have some blame here.

As far as this thread being started to warn us about the danger of pilots usiong the jumpseat to get back and forth in leu of a paid ticket for company business.. I'll just add that I think it's sad that a thread has to be started about this situation.

I'll say it again, when do we start holding ourselves and our fellow pilots accountable?

 

[Lear70]

I'll say it again, when do we start holding ourselves and our fellow pilots accountable?

We don't. That era is long gone.

There have been several times I have expected ALPA to go on record denouncing the behavior of another airline and using the only tools we have to bring them into compliance with SOME semblance of professionalism: the jumpseat and hiring practices.

1. Deny them the jumpseat. Anywhere. Period.

2. Make sure the pilot recruiters never, ever hire one of their pilots again.

But, instead, ALPA and other unions have told us EXACTLY how we should respond... by actively seeking their membership, thereby increasing dues, and then STILL not stopping or slowing of any work that undermines the efforts to raise the bar on this profession.

The ALPA many of us believed in is simply gone, having COMPLETELY abandoned the principles that so many have fought and suffered for. And without a cohesive effort, those of us who ARE prepared to do something about it are made out to be just "rogues" who "aren't in line with the needs of the union and are actually hurting the rest of us by their actions" (gee, where have I heard *THAT* before).

The only person I have to answer to at the end of the day is my own conscience and God. Period. Jobs come and go; my personal belief system is with me until the day I die. I will continue to do what I can as long as I am a part of organized labor or until the day I am employed by an employer who doesn't repeatedly seek profit at other people's expense (their own labor and other airlines by less-than-honorable competition).

Your mileage may vary...

 

[Flyer2000]

I believe Mesa gets around the TDY, vs. jumpseat on company business "rules" by shifting domiciles. I don't work at Mesa, but worked with their jumpseat coordinator when GO first started. If I remember correctly the procedure went something like.....your trip this month all start out of HNL....you are now domiciled there. However, if the next month your trips start out PHX......then you are domiciled there. JO is VERY aware of how to get around rules and making his pilots do "questionable" tasks.

I may not have the details down 100%, but that was how it used to be at Mesa. So if you were to ask a Mesa pilot if he was "TDY" or commuting....the answer will be commuting.

 

[dooork]

I believe Mesa gets around the TDY, vs. jumpseat on company business "rules" by shifting domiciles. I don't work at Mesa, but worked with their jumpseat coordinator when GO first started. If I remember correctly the procedure went something like.....your trip this month all start out of HNL....you are now domiciled there. However, if the next month your trips start out PHX......then you are domiciled there. JO is VERY aware of how to get around rules and making his pilots do "questionable" tasks.

I may not have the details down 100%, but that was how it used to be at Mesa. So if you were to ask a Mesa pilot if he was "TDY" or commuting....the answer will be commuting.

B.S. Typical FI poster that does not know what they are talking about. Maybe you can find a bad egg that has done what you say....but that would be a MGT cronie. MESA pilots do not and know not to go on company business on the jump seat.

 

[FoxyWhiskey]

In the past, I think most of us "looked the other way" when it came down to seperating Mesa Management from Mesa pilots...didn't want to fault the pilot group for the shady, backdoor politics of management.

But after seeing a classact carrier like Aloha close doors as a DIRECT result of J.O. and his dirty business, this is going to be very hard for any of us to do.

This injustice just doesn't go away, it will be brought to the flight deck everytime a Mesa jumpseater wants to ride. I advocate and support crews who choose to educate & deny the jumpseat to ANY Mesa pilot going to HNL. Just say NO. Period.

This is a small industry, and as fate may have it: Mesa pilots may indeed have a former Aloha pilot sitting on their interview board at XYZ airline down the road. They should be ready for the sh*tstorm, and think about how being part of Mesa will affect their longterm career, because Karma is a B*tch and sure as hell on the way.

-FW

 

[topdawg]

I don't think there's an idiot out there who would admit to taking a job to sink another carrier, especially if he or she is asking a captain for a ride on their jumpseat, but maybe you would, I don't know.

A pilot should plan to live at domicile, huh? May I ask if you have always lived at your domicile. What about those who you fly with? Do you deny the jumpseat to other pilots who commute to a place that has a high cost of living, like, say, New York, LA, San Fran? It stinks what happened to Aloha, but where was your support for them when go! went into business there? I don't remember seeing ALPA picketing or crying out injustice while they were out there.

I think the company management does have a say as to who rides on their jumpseat too. Don't turn this into a union war, Aloha and Mesa Air Group pilots are both card carrying ALPA members. You don't like what Mesa did, neither do I, but I'm not going to punish a pilot for what his management.

Well they chose to work there. Dragging down the entire industry with its pathetic pilot contracts and its crews. Nobody should ever hire these clowns...make them live in the filth they created!
I dont give a sht it they're ALPA. They knew what kind of airline it was and they had a choice.