To Usair/AWA Pilots

[vetrider]

Well can't really say that those of us hired in 99 are expecting to be put in front of a 9 yr capt. Though I guess we are expecting that an f/o that was active NOT to be placed below someone that was on probation or at 1 year or so seniority.....

The last west pilot with a captain bid, to be trained this september, has a hire date of jan 99. There is no way a 99 hire from east could be put in front of any west captain. Obviously, even straight doh wouldn't do that.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

There was 99 new hires at the East in Jan of 99.

 

[vetrider]

There was 99 new hires at the East in Jan of 99.

Yes that is true, but DK with a 98 date was the last guy out west until most recently. One other thing is also true, under doh, all the post 96 west would be on the ass end of the list with the 99 and onward east folks. Not just the ass end, but the ass end of the ass end.

Doh wouldn't help the 99 and onward east guys so much as it would penalize the living daylights out of the entire west, especially post 96.

 

[BeCareful!]

The biggest clown of all was the lawyer. Even being a west pilot, seeing those videos made me feel sorry for that line up of incompetents.

Removing all emotion, previous slights, chips on the shoulder, etc.(tough I know, but play along if you will), there is no way a rational person would get behind usapa.

Simply pitiful and pathetic.

Vet -

I haven't bothered with the video yet, but I will get to that. I stand by what I said, that I do not believe USAPA is going to try for DOH for the most junior East pilots. If they do, I think it's a bad move, because it's simply too divisive an issue. I've been told specifically that the "reasonable conditions and restrictions" will be applied here.

But I have to tell you, reference your statement about "rational persons," that there's no way any rational person would support East ALPA after watching what they've become. For me and a thousand others, Nic has little to do with it. I assume I'll end up junior anyway, probably looking for a job again soon, but that doesn't change my mind. The lawyer's a clown? Doesn't change my mind. USAPA doesn't have much money? Doesn't change my mind. You guys really have only a small picture available to understand what a bunch of jackasses East ALPA is. We understand much better that this organization MUST LEAVE OFFICE. Jackass ALPA reps and "negotiators" are the cause of all this turmoil.

 

[vetrider]

Vet -

I haven't bothered with the video yet, but I will get to that. I stand by what I said, that I do not believe USAPA is going to try for DOH for the most junior East pilots. If they do, I think it's a bad move, because it's simply too divisive an issue. I've been told specifically that the "reasonable conditions and restrictions" will be applied here.

But I have to tell you, reference your statement about "rational persons," that there's no way any rational person would support East ALPA after watching what they've become. For me and a thousand others, Nic has little to do with it. I assume I'll end up junior anyway, probably looking for a job again soon, but that doesn't change my mind. The lawyer's a clown? Doesn't change my mind. USAPA doesn't have much money? Doesn't change my mind. You guys really have only a small picture available to understand what a bunch of jackasses East ALPA is. We understand much better that this organization MUST LEAVE OFFICE. Jackass ALPA reps and "negotiators" are the cause of all this turmoil.

I worked for an alpa represented regional and then awa, believe me, I have first hand experience with alpa not giving a ******************** about me. But this usapa stuff is just a flat out train wreck. All those usapa guys at the table and the lawyer aren't stupid, but even Einsten would look stupid, as they did, when there isn't a damn thing to work with.

There is alot of difference in an organization not giving a ********************(alpa) versus gross incompetence with nothing to work with except blind rage(usapa). Watch Bradford almost knock himself off his chair as he explains getting kicked out of the left seat twice in 22 years.

East alpa, usapa, whatever, you're still fishing from the same talent pool. And under usapa they will have no leverage of any kind and a whole lot less to work with.

 

[PCL_128]

We understand much better that this organization MUST LEAVE OFFICE. Jackass ALPA reps and "negotiators" are the cause of all this turmoil.

That is easily solved by recalling those reps and replacing them with ones you trust. Getting rid of ALPA is not the answer. Replacing the reps is.

 

[BeCareful!]

Vetrider,

Well, as I said, I haven't seen it yet.

I'm sure being in PHX had a little something to do with it.....I think they were probably a bit out of whack due to that.

What I've seen is a lot of hard work done in a short time. USAPA really has got a complete product in place, and if you aren't impressed by it then so be it.

I think there's a chance for some unity, someday, with a clean slate. With ALPA, I guarantee there never will be. ALPA is divisive by its nature. Sad, but true.

Anyway, I appreciate the intelligent discourse. Many in the West, even your ALPA Reps on here, lack the ability.

 

[BeCareful!]

That is easily solved by recalling those reps and replacing them with ones you trust. Getting rid of ALPA is not the answer. Replacing the reps is.

Really? How easy is it when your council won't hold a meeting? How easy is it when your Reps spread lies, irrational fear, and unfounded BS to sway voting? How easy is it when National steps in and removes the only reps that actually represent the majority?

Easily solved.....sure.....not with ALPA it ain't!

 

[Boeing747Driver]

I am curious what plan B is when USAPA figures out the NIC will stand.

 

[vetrider]

Really? How easy is it when your council won't hold a meeting? How easy is it when your Reps spread lies, irrational fear, and unfounded BS to sway voting? How easy is it when National steps in and removes the only reps that actually represent the majority?

Easily solved.....sure.....not with ALPA it ain't!

I see it a little differently,albiet from farther away. I don't think alpa removed reps that represent the majority, but I do think they removed the agent zigzap usapians in their midst.

How does anyone know what the majority is when the east pulled out of JNC? Anyone can outfit himself with stickers and lanyards and send in cards. Up until this point everything is free, the rubber has yet to hit the road.

If usapa should win, then I guess what I wrote above would arguably be wrong, but I don't think any of us will be better served that way. Personally, I'm all for talking, and I personally have negotiating space. I just don't like doing at the end of a gun.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Really? How easy is it when your council won't hold a meeting? How easy is it when your Reps spread lies, irrational fear, and unfounded BS to sway voting? How easy is it when National steps in and removes the only reps that actually represent the majority?

Easily solved.....sure.....not with ALPA it ain't!

More garbage! THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE they must have qtly meetings as per the NMB! You didn't recall those morons and it came back to haunt.

WD.

 

[BeCareful!]

I see it a little differently,albiet from farther away. I don't think alpa removed reps that represent the majority, but I do think they removed the agent zigzap usapians in their midst.

How does anyone know what the majority is when the east pulled out of JNC? Anyone can outfit himself with stickers and lanyards and send in cards. Up until this point everything is free, the rubber has yet to hit the road.

If usapa should win, then I guess what I wrote above would arguably be wrong, but I don't think any of us will be better served that way. Personally, I'm all for talking, and I personally have negotiating space. I just don't like doing at the end of a gun.

Vetrider -

Correct.....what I should have said was that they removed the reps that represented the majority of the East pilots' views (PHL).

Negotiating space? You're the only West pilot I've ever heard of saying anything like that. Most of your group acts like the Nic is the new starting point and anything less will be a concession, even though no one has yet benefited from the "award."

Certainly we all understand the "end of the gun" reference. East pilots feel like ALPA National has a gun pointed our way.

Either way you look at this, ALPA has done a reprehensible job of dealing with this merger. They continue to screw up, and they even screw up here on this public board by spewing asinine blather and venom (WD).

One of the things that most irritates the average USAPA voter is the continual Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt that ALPA spreads. It seems that's all they have to work with, since their record is so gawdaful. There's that, and then the recent riding on the coat tails of USAPA by saying that "seniority matters." Jesus, ALPA, think of something on your own!


In any case, if AA, SWA, and UPS can do it, then so can we.

 

[BeCareful!]

More garbage! THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE they must have qtly meetings as per the NMB! You didn't recall those morons and it came back to haunt.

WD.

Yeah, but they refused to put RECALL on the agenda.

Educate yourself, WD.....you're in the big leagues now.

 

[PCL_128]

Yeah, but they refused to put RECALL on the agenda.

Educate yourself, WD.....you're in the big leagues now.

All you have to do is contact Captain Bill Couette, VP-Administration, and he will be happy to assist you if you believe that your council is not complying with the Bylaws. That would be far more productive than crying like a little girl on an internet message board.

 

[vetrider]

Vetrider -

Correct.....what I should have said was that they removed the reps that represented the majority of the East pilots' views (PHL).

Negotiating space? You're the only West pilot I've ever heard of saying anything like that. Most of your group acts like the Nic is the new starting point and anything less will be a concession, even though no one has yet benefited from the "award."

Certainly we all understand the "end of the gun" reference. East pilots feel like ALPA National has a gun pointed our way.

Either way you look at this, ALPA has done a reprehensible job of dealing with this merger. They continue to screw up, and they even screw up here on this public board by spewing asinine blather and venom (WD).

One of the things that most irritates the average USAPA voter is the continual Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt that ALPA spreads. It seems that's all they have to work with, since their record is so gawdaful. There's that, and then the recent riding on the coat tails of USAPA by saying that "seniority matters." Jesus, ALPA, think of something on your own!


In any case, if AA, SWA, and UPS can do it, then so can we.

The nic is the nic, by negotiating space I mean contractual and implementation issues. The gun I was referring to is the easts "here it is or else" stance. What is the west supposed to say to that?

So far the east has held the whole process hostage because everyone is tip toeing around the decert threat and letting the east get away without being accountable to anyone.

The alpa process would work, if both sides follow through with it. Ultimately, something would be ratified, but how can we know what it is when the east is allowed to pull out? So far we don't know for sure what would ratify and what wouldn't because we haven't seen any voting results. So far we are just taking the east's bluster at face value.

Alpa's process isn't perfect, but it isn't as broken as you are trying to make it out to be. The east's lack of integrity and honor is what is mucking this up. Usapa will not help. Put the gun away, come back to the table, and someday something will come of it.

Oh yeah, get rid of Prater. I firmly believe with a stronger leader at the top, the alpa process in place will bear fruit. Don't laugh, it may take a while, maybe even years, but I believe it will eventually work.

If you think alpa has a gun to your head, should you get usapa, wait till the law, the judge, and the company get to have at you. Alpa is actually molly coddling the east in my opinion, and you guys don't even know it. If you'd collectively quit just stomping your feet and demanding, you might actually figure that out.

 

[FR8mastr]

All you have to do is contact Captain Bill Couette, VP-Administration, and he will be happy to assist you if you believe that your council is not complying with the Bylaws. That would be far more productive than crying like a little girl on an internet message board.

Gee if only the CLT pilots would have thought of that. Oh wait they did, and yet the meeting has still not happened. I am told they will be getting around to it though.

 

[Bad-Andy]

I am curious what plan B is when USAPA figures out the NIC will stand.

Or when the company tells them to go pound sand and won't negotiate a "cram-down" contract with them... I've just accepted that either way we are screwed and the loud, belligerent folks on both sides will never be quiet no matter who wins...

But, what do I care, if these fuel prices stay up I'll be furloughed soon... :bomb:

 

[Crzipilot]

In fact, certified letters were sent to the CLT reps requesting the recall be put on the agenda. There was even an email, or notice of such indicating the reps got that letter. The reps simply said, nope sorry, we aren't putting that on the agenda....and I believe the Qtrly meeting is about a month late. (not positive though) Either way, As the CLT reps are in the cradled arms of mother alpa, they are treated as though they have done no wrong. Instead of putting the recall on the agenda and seeing what occurs.

 

[PCL_128]

Got any proof that Captain Couette is ignoring your concerns? I highly doubt it.

 

[Crzipilot]

Sure there's lots of proof. Meetings callled that have been not called meetings. Strange, they turned to informational sessions. Emails to Couette regarding the status of the qtrly mandated meetings, as well as having the recall subject put onto the agenda.....This was all started back in December.

Certified letters sent, etc........and even a council letter put out....

On December 9th, 2007 the Council put out a Council letter with the following quote:
“We have received a letter from First Officer requesting that the recall of your elected representatives be placed on the agenda of our next LEC Meeting. We respect the right of our Council members to recall us at any time and will carry the process forward.”


I too am not based in CLT, but one would think, if according the bylaws, one must simply provide ample notice to their reps, as to the request of having an item added to the agenda, it shall be placed there. I don't recall anything in the bylaws stating the need to solicit National, though there has been constant dialogue with them. Hence, The agenda was published, no recall on the agenda, and the Capt rep stating it would not be put on there due to the agenda being closed....

Ok....ALPA at it's best..

 

[ferlo]

All you ALPA hounds....remember who was in charge of the AAA MEC when the pension was given away in the middle of the night without membership ratification?

Inquiring minds want to know.

A350

I'll tell you, it was the locally elected officials of AAA. Nothing at all to do with ALPA national. It was US Airways own pilots that handed that over. Why is it so hard to understand...ALPA IS the pilot group...not some black ops organization hidden in a bunker.

And history is repeating. It will be USAPA and their union busting tactics that bring on a whole new level of pain. Again, US Airways pilot self inflicting more wounds to themselves. Pathetic.

 

[BeCareful!]

Got any proof that Captain Couette is ignoring your concerns? I highly doubt it.

I've known Bill Couette since the 1990's.

He has failed to respond to three e mails from me. Yes, I think he is ignoring the issues surrounding the runaway AAA ALPA group.

 

[BeCareful!]

I'll tell you, it was the locally elected officials of AAA. Nothing at all to do with ALPA national. It was US Airways own pilots that handed that over. Why is it so hard to understand...ALPA IS the pilot group...not some black ops organization hidden in a bunker.

ferlo,

Why is so hard for you to understand that this ALPA group, the AAA GAG, has boarded a runaway freight train? Read crzipilot's post.....they refuse to put recall on the agenda. You and Wiskey Driver tout the great democratic ALPA and in our case it's simply BU!!$HIT.

THAT'S WHY WE ARE HAVING AN ELECTION!

And history is repeating. It will be USAPA and their union busting tactics that bring on a whole new level of pain. Again, US Airways pilot self inflicting more wounds to themselves. Pathetic.

I think labeling USAPA as union busters is pathetic. USAPA is doing the only thing they can to stop a corrupt, inbred group who lies out their @sses. USAPA is the only thing that is unifying on this property. I've never seen over 3000 US Air pilots agree on anything.....but I do now!

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Sure there's lots of proof. Meetings callled that have been not called meetings. Strange, they turned to informational sessions. Emails to Couette regarding the status of the qtrly mandated meetings, as well as having the recall subject put onto the agenda.....This was all started back in December.

Certified letters sent, etc........and even a council letter put out....

On December 9th, 2007 the Council put out a Council letter with the following quote:
“We have received a letter from First Officer requesting that the recall of your elected representatives be placed on the agenda of our next LEC Meeting. We respect the right of our Council members to recall us at any time and will carry the process forward.”


I too am not based in CLT, but one would think, if according the bylaws, one must simply provide ample notice to their reps, as to the request of having an item added to the agenda, it shall be placed there. I don't recall anything in the bylaws stating the need to solicit National, though there has been constant dialogue with them. Hence, The agenda was published, no recall on the agenda, and the Capt rep stating it would not be put on there due to the agenda being closed....

Ok....ALPA at it's best..

You know what, I like both Marshall and Lance but if they pulled that crap then they need to be removed! You see out here in the west, we don't play that game and in fact it's a right of passage to be placed on the agenda for recall!!

I realize that you ae tied of the same old same old but frankly you are completely responsible! This should have never ever gone this far!! Heads should have rolled years ago when your RC4 was doing dirt.

usapa will only serve to drive a divide so deep that the only recourse will be to fragment. Two groups that under no circumstances will ever come together.

WD.

 

[Sig]

usapa will only serve to drive a divide so deep that the only recourse will be to fragment. Two groups that under no circumstances will ever come together.

WD.

This is too easy. Violate the contract in a ginormous way after USAPA is on property, and watch their money go away realllllly fast.

What is their plan when that happens?

But that ain't legal, you say? Ok, let's go to court.
But... but... this grievance... Ok, here's the list, which arbiter ya want?

But... the money? Yes?

... and before the wheels leave the bandwagon, I don't know if management is that mean/silly/law flaunting. But what if?