NWA reports it, so it must be true

[nwaredtail]

Quote of the day: from Detroit News Editorial: Pilots should assist in Delta-Northwest merger - on Mar. 20, 2008.
"If that uprising goes through, the (Delta) pilots will have sunk to sheer obstructionism -- and walked away from working out differences to strengthen both companies for the long haul. It smacks of whistling past the graveyard."

 

[FDJ2]

It's getting a little embarassing watching NWALPA begging to merge. They've stopped asking DALPA to reengage, they been told no long enough already, now they're trying to cozy up to management in an effort to facilitate a merger with DAL.

Why can't they just drop it and walk away from the merger with some dignity?

The Delta pilots are moving on, so should the NWA pilots.

The transaction agreement was based on mutually agreement on the SLI among other things, not abdicating leadership responsibility to an arbitrator.

 

[d.fitz]

Why can't they just drop it and walk away from the merger with some dignity?

The Delta pilots are moving on, so should the NWA pilots.

He says.... responding to every single post saying the same thing...

 

[Heavy Set]

He says.... responding to every single post saying the same thing...

What's wrong with that? He is correct. You have to wonder why the Northwest guys continually want to re-engage. What do they know? Doesn't sound good.

 

[jke406]

Quote of the day: from Detroit News Editorial: Pilots should assist in Delta-Northwest merger - on Mar. 20, 2008.
"If that uprising goes through, the (Delta) pilots will have sunk to sheer obstructionism -- and walked away from working out differences to strengthen both companies for the long haul. It smacks of whistling past the graveyard."

what does some leftist newspaper's opinion have to do with anything?

you had your chance. you blew it.

stop rationalizing your decision by quoting the media know-nothings (the same ones who say we're overpaid and under worked).

 

[Rough67]

.. so should the NWA pilots.

.

i did a long time ago.. stop generalizing please.. thanks :0

 

[Heavy Set]

i did a long time ago.. stop generalizing please.. thanks :0

Why does your MEC continue to try to engage? Really, it is kind of weird. What do they know? You have to ask yourself why a group who initially balked at something, suddenly wants "expedited arbitration?" Something smells rotten in Denmark. (maybe the General is there....hahaha---just joking Lee)

 

[Occam's Razor]

It's getting a little embarassing watching NWALPA begging to merge. They've stopped asking DALPA to reengage, they been told no long enough already, now they're trying to cozy up to management in an effort to facilitate a merger with DAL.

Why can't they just drop it and walk away from the merger with some dignity?

The Delta pilots are moving on, so should the NWA pilots.

Ouch!

If your statements were accurate, it'd be bad.

Thankfully, they're not.

Nobody is "moving on". This is a time-out.

 

[tomgoodman]

Fat Lady may encore

Nobody is "moving on". This is a time-out.

That's very possible. Walking away from the table is a normal part of negotiation. You know how much you want a deal but must test how much the other guy wants a deal. In this game, moreover, the referees can order the clock to re-start at any time. Players will then take the field or risk a forfeit.
Of course, if the officials themselves quit, the game will be cancelled. Another one might be scheduled for next year, with different personnel suiting up, or even different teams.

 

[Superpilot92]

What's wrong with that? He is correct. You have to wonder why the Northwest guys continually want to re-engage. What do they know? Doesn't sound good.

could it be that NWA ALPA thinks its going to happen regardless of what the DAL pilots think? Bottom line is if the management team wants it to happen then they are going to try. The NWA alpa team is being realistic IMHO. DAL doesnt want to go to arbitration because they know that they are being one sided and that if an outside source gets in the middle they will see DALs "deal".

 

[737 Pylt]

could it be that NWA ALPA thinks its going to happen regardless of what the DAL pilots think?

Most likely not. Most likely because NWA ALPA sees that there are more likely more airplanes about to be parked on the NWA side, and are wanting to use the DAL pilot force as furlough fodder.

Bottom line is if the management team wants it to happen then they are going to try. The NWA alpa team is being realistic IMHO.

I'm sure your idea of realistic has a purple sky and a rainbow as well too?

DAL doesnt want to go to arbitration because they know that they are being one sided and that if an outside source gets in the middle they will see DALs "deal".

No, DAL doesn't want to go to arbitration, because it was not part of the equation. The deal was to complete a mutually agreed upon SLI! Something neither side was able to do.

737

 

[Superpilot92]

Most likely not. Most likely because NWA ALPA sees that there are more likely more airplanes about to be parked on the NWA side, and are wanting to use the DAL pilot force as furlough fodder. Again wrong, there are facts that go into this answer but they have been discussed many times and the DAL guys seem to conveniently over look the Facts when it comes to NWA.


I'm sure your idea of realistic has a purple sky and a rainbow as well too? That's cute, must be some fantasy of yours.


No, DAL doesn't want to go to arbitration, because it was not part of the equation. The deal was to complete a mutually agreed upon SLI! Something neither side was able to do. Equation meaning what DAL's Rules? Does that mean agreed upon by the DAL guys? The DAL guys put on a front that we should just take whats offered and be glad we can call ourselves DAL pilots

737

Discuss

 

[737 Pylt]

Again wrong, there are facts that go into this answer but they have been discussed many times and the DAL guys seem to conveniently over look the Facts when it comes to NWA.
Oh this is rich.....Does the NWA ALPA fact figure person get his information from "Baghdad Bob?"
From someone who's been there less than a month, you seem to have your head already conviently burried in the sand. I know being at the bottom of the seniority list can be nerve wrecking, but remember, denial ain't just a river in Egypt.


That's cute, must be some fantasy of yours.
Actually I was asking if it was a fantasy of yours!

Equation meaning what DAL's Rules? Does that mean agreed upon by the DAL guys? The DAL guys put on a front that we should just take whats offered and be glad we can call ourselves DAL pilots
Too bad common sense isn't so common. The offer to merge was based on the two sides agreeing to a "mutually agreed upon SLI." Not the NWA ALPA's side of DOH. Hey look, we tried, your people are unreasonable. We've moved on, maybe you should too! Of course it really doesn't matter what happens, because as a probabionary pilot your input there is about as useful as your input here.

And there you have it.

737

 

[Superpilot92]

And there you have it.

737

First off you're wrong on the time i have been on property I also am far from burying my head in the sand, i try and take both sides info and gather my own opinion as we all should do. However it appears that most of the DAL guys only look at their own side. Some friendly news for you, the world does not revolve around DAL. I will agree though that no matter what MY or YOUR opinion is on this board it basically comes down to meaningless babble.

This isnt about what i want because either way i will be towards the bottom, with that said i still have a lot to lose and gain depending on how the seniority would've played out, hence my attempt to gather info from everywhere i can (read not so much this forum) LOL.

Its ok for you to come out of the closet and tell everyone about you purple sky, rainbow fantasy!! There is no reason to try and spin that around on me for my approval. Go gettem big guy :laugh:

 

[Noserider76]

That's very possible. Walking away from the table is a normal part of negotiation. You know how much you want a deal but must test how much the other guy wants a deal. In this game, moreover, the referees can order the clock to re-start at any time. Players will then take the field or risk a forfeit.
Of course, if the officials themselves quit, the game will be cancelled. Another one might be scheduled for next year, with different personnel suiting up, or even different teams.

Much has changed since the financials of the deal were first put on paper. Oil price, stock prices, and the economy to name just a few. The airline operating environment has completely changed. That would at the very least force a re-evaluation by the companies as well as a re-evaluation of positions by both MECs. From the MEC's position, what happens to business plans, aircraft, leases, etc if oil hits $130,140,150 or the economy takes an even steeper turn south....and how do you best protect your pilot group initially and a combined pilot group down the road.

 

[Superpilot92]

Much has changed since the financials of the deal were first put on paper. Oil price, stock prices, and the economy to name just a few. The airline operating environment has completely changed. That would at the very least force a re-evaluation by the companies as well as a re-evaluation of positions by both MECs. From the MEC's position, what happens to business plans, aircraft, leases, etc if oil hits $130,140,150 or the economy takes an even steeper turn south....and how do you best protect your pilot group initially and a combined pilot group down the road.

Exactly thats why IMHO the seniority issue is such a big deal. Pay raises are not guaranteed and will certainly change up or down over time. Seniority, for the most part is pretty much set. Agreeing to a merger based on payrates and aircraft orders isn't whats important in the long term. just my 2 pennies worth

 

[737 Pylt]

First off you're wrong on the time i have been on property

Ok, so I was off by a day or 2.

I also am far from burying my head in the sand, i try and take both sides info and gather my own opinion as we all should do.

Then spin it into your own little reality. Nice!

However it appears that most of the DAL guys only look at their own side. Some friendly news for you, the world does not revolve around DAL.

Nobody said it did, but then again, it doesn't matter to try and prove facts to a FNG, because he has no say or clue!

I will agree though that no matter what MY or YOUR opinion is on this board it basically comes down to meaningless babble.

Much like NWA ALPA communications. You see, you do understand.

This isnt about what i want because either way i will be towards the bottom, with that said i still have a lot to lose and gain depending on how the seniority would've played out, hence my attempt to gather info from everywhere i can (read not so much this forum) LOL.

Well, according to your baghdad bob, your newhire seniority would have put 2000 DAL pilots below you. In their dream world, I'm sure that would have been ok.

Its ok for you to come out of the closet and tell everyone about you purple sky, rainbow fantasy!! There is no reason to try and spin that around on me for my approval. Go gettem big guy :laugh:

This from the guy who took the time to color code his post.
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
You go girl!

737

 

[Superpilot92]

Ok, so I was off by a day or 2. More


Then spin it into your own little reality. Nice! Not spin, educate.


Nobody said it did, but then again, it doesn't matter to try and prove facts to a FNG, because he has no say or clue! FNG sure, Clue-Yes i have some.


Much like NWA ALPA communications. You see, you do understand.What i understand is there is a big disconnect between what you're being told and what i am being told.


Well, according to your baghdad bob, your newhire seniority would have put 2000 DAL pilots below you. In their dream world, I'm sure that would have been ok.Read above comment ^^^^^^^^^^^^^


This from the guy who took the time to color code his post.
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
You go girl! I color coded it so that you could feel better about your decsion to come out of the closet. Not that there is anything wrong with that! Its ok, Be Free LMAO Its a joke, deal with it already

737

Discuss

 

[IXLR8]

Wally!! Beaver !!!!!!

 

[tomgoodman]

Silver lining?

Much has changed since the financials of the deal were first put on paper. Oil price, stock prices, and the economy to name just a few. The airline operating environment has completely changed. That would at the very least force a re-evaluation by the companies as well as a re-evaluation of positions by both MECs. From the MEC's position, what happens to business plans, aircraft, leases, etc if oil hits $130,140,150 or the economy takes an even steeper turn south....and how do you best protect your pilot group initially and a combined pilot group down the road.

I agree, and that would appear to make a "time out" for re-evaluation worthwhile. The changes you mention seem to have decreased the desire of many pilots for a merger, but may well have increased management's and the creditors' desire for one. That could work to the pilots' advantage in hammering out a new contract.

 

[FDJ2]

Nobody is "moving on". This is a time-out.

The transaction framework agreement is dead.

If by saying "nobody is moving on", you mean that we are all still in this industry and subject to a variety of possibilities, one of which is consolidation, not necessarily with NWA, you're right. However, what was previously agreed too, no longer exists.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Exactly. The transaction framework agreement is dead. The opportunity is gone.

First, management advises they do not know if a merger makes sense now.

Second, if management tries to force a merger without the pilots' consent, the Delta pilots will support their MEC. Delta has a Strike Preparedness Committee which is also funded, prepared and spun up. Just as prepared as the Merger Committee.

The Northwest pilots, at least those on this board, just do not have adequate situational awareness. They fail to realize where we are. This was not a section 6 negotiation, this was business. A refusal was not a starting point, it was an ending point. External force is not a motivational power, it instead guarantees organized resistance.

So far in the merger game the Delta boys are 2 & 0. Don't know why no one gets it, but it is simple; the pilots will support the right merger, they will not support the wrong merger. Without the pilots' support the merger will not happen.

None of us knows whether management's re-evaluation will include NWA. I think the primary plan is to go it alone and I think tie ups with other airlines are under deeper consideration than NWA. NWA brings a seniority integration battle as well as a different corporate culture which might not be the best fit.

If I had to guess, Alaska Airlines and/or Jet Blue might make more sense.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

fins,fdj2, el general, beuler somebody. I posted this in another thread and no response. I am sure it is because no one saw it. So here it is again, would appreciate some unemotional, rational answers. Thanks.


Serious question. I keep hearing how superior your workrules and contract is, could you guys please give some examples/comparisons for us?? I also keep hearing about the 30% pay raises we would have gotton, but maybe my math is wrong. I make 139/hr as a 320 capt. and your 737ng pays 154/hr according to apc. Now that is an 11% raise. Now as far as the raises going forward, those were to be given to all, not just the nw pilots. I have not seen any details of what the combined contract would have looked like. The good things we have are bstg(bid scheduled trip guarantee) basically get paid for the line you bid regardless xcelations, our sick leave cap of 1200 hrs(lots of us have more than that) our call in honest(commuter policy) reserve guarantee of 75 hours. These are just some off the top of my head. Don't get me wrong, lots not to like but I bet the same is true at all airlines(even before our little trip thru ch11) So, if anyone has any comparisons btw our contracts that show how 3rd world our contract is to deltas please tell.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Cobra:

Let me first steer you towards your own ALPA rep. I keep trying and can not find an easy answer for your legitimate question.

Both the Delta and the NWA pilots would have gotten raises. I ran some numbers for this board and folks wanted to fight over 1% here and there, rather than realize that each aircraft and each seat would have seen different levels of improvement. If you don't mind, could you look up those posts rather than have me do all the research to answer your question? In general the Delta guys were going to get 21% and the NWA guys were going to get to "me too" on the improved Delta rates. By my math, some common seats (like the 757 FO) saw 40% premiums over current book by the time you added in the 14% DC. ( I never saw the numbers on your aircraft. The 737-700 would have gotten the 800 rates which are only a dollar or three off the 767/757 rates - which would have been a windfall if the A320 was brought up to match, but that is only a guess. The 757 was the only hard numbers I had because both of our airlines operate them )Again, every seat and every aircraft were going to see different numbers. It was hard to make generalized statements that were completely accurate, even the various retirement options at NWA made generalizations by someone who does not fully understand both contracts inaccurate.

The staffing models are different and Delta just won a minimum staffing grievance based on their contract language. I do not know the NWA language, but apparently the resolution of those two agreements was going to force additional hiring.

Sorry to not spend adequate time to fully answer your question. The reason is simply that the DEAL NO LONGER EXISTS!!!! (do I have to write this again?)

With oil prices where they are at and the window of opportunity gone, Delta Management pulled the offer off the table. There is not much point in debating something that is gone.

No line guys actually saw the framework anyway - all that was distributed was done pilot to pilot. The deal hinged on pilot agreement and without concurrence on SLI, there was no deal fit to print.

 

[DAL737FO]

fins,fdj2, el general, beuler somebody. I posted this in another thread and no response. I am sure it is because no one saw it. So here it is again, would appreciate some unemotional, rational answers. Thanks.

I think that people are saying that at the end of the deal you would have moved up 30%. The deal I saw said 7/4/4/4 (19% in raises and 11% to reach parity equals 30%). As you stated you would move up 11% just to reach parity with our contract, then you add 7% for the first year. That would be an 18% bump to our 7% bump during the first year of the contract. Additionally our current contract is amendable next year, while I believe your's is in force until 2011. A lot of us over here do not want to extend our contract for another four years and would rather enter into section 6 negotiations. Who knows if that will be a good idea or bad one.

Good luck to you guys. Not taking a shot at you but I, as a junior guy, saw nothing good coming from our merger. We will see what the next few months have in store. It should be interesting.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

So, just as I expected no concrete facts just word of mouth. Do you remember that game as a kid where you sit in a circle and whisper something and by the time it gets around to the last person it is totally distorted? Do you think this is sorta the same? No facts, just training center know it alls and pilot lounge experts. There has been a lot of "FACTS" from the yahoos on this board from both sides, but no facts officially from either union. Do you think the big money is going to let this die?





No line guys actually saw the framework anyway - all that was distributed was done pilot to pilot. The deal hinged on pilot agreement and without concurrence on SLI, there was no deal fit to print.[/quote]

 

[~~~^~~~]

Do you think the big money is going to let this die?

In a word, yes.

When union Reps and Management all made similar statements regarding this turn of events - yes, I believe them. Further, the current team at Delta have a pretty good reputation for integrity.

But hey if, you don't trust me, you don't trust your reps and you do not trust your management I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The transaction framework agreement is dead.

If by saying "nobody is moving on", you mean that we are all still in this industry and subject to a variety of possibilities, one of which is consolidation, not necessarily with NWA, you're right. However, what was previously agreed too, no longer exists.

You've got some wiggle room within your generalization...but your conclusion is wrong.

 

[DTW320]

In a word, yes.

When union Reps and Management all made similar statements regarding this turn of events - yes, I believe them. Further, the current team at Delta have a pretty good reputation for integrity.

But hey if, you don't trust me, you don't trust your reps and you do not trust your management I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you.

You mean like when Bastian said, in the town hall meeting around 4 or 5 months ago: "no merger with NWA in the next six months and for many years to come."?

Keep believing whatever they tell you. They really like it when you do that....

 

[EdTeachLives!]

You've got some wiggle room within your generalization...but your conclusion is wrong.

No, the structure of this deal no longer exists. The package offered by "Mergco" is largely void in light of the recent economic changes.

What makes more sense going forward is a purchase of west coast feed and growing Asian capacity in relation to forward economic conditions.

No fleet problems, overlap or regulatory issues and more than likely easier integration.

Purchasing that west coast feed would directly impact Northwest as well.

Ed