Delta-Northwest Deal at Risk

[propdog]

According to the last "Lounge Meeting" Beck reiterated, " if there is no pilot agreement, there is no deal."

We don't need this....neither group needs this. KILL IT NOW!!!

I agree bro. However, I think the deal will go through just because the board of directors of both NWA and DAL wants the deal to go through---simple as that. In the meantime, we might as well maximize on the benefits by negotiating a pretty good deal with the management and come to some sort of agreement on the seniority integration---so that we don't have to go into arbitration and fight for the next 30 years. By the way who is Beck??

 

[NuGuy]

"Keep Delta their Delta" is the phrase around NWA...

Nu

 

[Fly4hire]

According to the last "Lounge Meeting" Beck reiterated, " if there is no pilot agreement, there is no deal."

We don't need this....neither group needs this. KILL IT NOW!!!

There were no meetings over the weekend. The SLI is being hung up because DALPA thinks they are "saving" NWA pilots. Think Western and PAA.

The deal will be killed by DALPA arrogance.

 

[Noserider76]

But...the NWA MEC has basically come out at said that protecting the bottom 1/2 of the list is THE priority, and the DAL team can't understand why we won't sell out half our list, even for a big pile of cash.

There's been lots of clever "ad placement" and "negotiating in the press" by the DAL MEC and their operatives that has acted as political cover for what their real position was.

Despite claims of "cowboys" on the NWA team, the DAL opener was absolute nonsense that would have not only put DAL guys entrenched at the top for years, but would have stapled over 2000 NWA guys to the bottom of list. Needless to say, the NWA guys put one finger on each hand up and told them to go pound grits.

Nu

Since you're tossing around accusations, the word I got is that one group showed up prepared and one group hadn't done their homework and showed up making threats. One group was thinking outside the box in the beginning and was responsible for getting the combined pilot group an offer of equity in the first place.

Your guys won't sell out your bottom guys (or any hopefully) and our guys won't sell out any of our guys. That's the way it should be. The bottom line is, though, it will take compromise (or arbitration) if this deal is forced on us.

Many questions that have no easy answers come up. How do you propose you take care of your guys on your equipment and we take care of our's on our equipment? How about downside protection for us against the possibility of retiring the DC-9s? The Robert's Award was good enough for you the first time. Is that the only way to do it now?

Why would your 747 guys go ahead of our higher paid 777 guys? How do you protect those in a given base from being bumped down or losing an upgrade to former commuters? Why should NW pilots get a bigger raise than DL pilots? How do you account for the many more high paying spots DL brings to the table? I've got lots more. We probably have a better chance of brokering peace between India and Pakistan than a negotiated deal here.

 

[FDJ2]

How can any announcement come on Monday then?? I guess press is as clueless as we are-as usual....

Another good reason not to listen to the media or their "unnamed sources close to the talks."

There is just way too much rumor mongering.

 

[FDJ2]

There were no meetings over the weekend. The SLI is being hung up because DALPA thinks they are "saving" NWA pilots. Think Western and PAA. The deal will be killed by DALPA arrogance.

Source or just more crew room gossip?

 

[Fly4hire]

Many questions that have no easy answers come up.

And the number one is why after the seniority bump you got for your early retirements should you get another seniority bump for retiring NWA pilots in a few years?

A compromise that might work is dynamic ratios - say I come in in the 50% percentile today, I maintain that relative to my DAL peers as our retirements start to kick in. No windfalls for anyone.

DAL's SLI proposal would have me at 50% today, and 30% in ten years, while my DAL counterpart would move up to 70%. Clearly unacceptable, and it renders any contractual improvements meaningless.

Even more worrisome is the $4 billion dollar debt payment DAL has due in a few years. Who are they going to throw under the bus to fund that.

Contracts are periodically negotiable, seniority is forever.

 

[FDJ2]

Why would your 747 guys go ahead of our higher paid 777 guys?

He shouldn't. The value of the 747 position at NW isn't as great as the value of the 777 position at DAL. ALPA merger policy seeks to balance equities, it's hard to argue that a seat position that pays less is worth more. However with a new contract that brings the NWA guys up to DAL pay levels and beyond, that seat will have more value once it's brought into a joint contract. Therefore it will probably be given equivalent value for the purposes of integration. The same goes for the other wide bodied and narrow bodied aircraft.

How do you protect those in a given base from being bumped down or losing an upgrade to former commuters?

Good question.

Why should NW pilots get a bigger raise than DL pilots?

So we can be one big happy family and not whipsaw each other. The difference ought to be made up by giving DAL pilots a larger equity stake per capita since the NWA pilots will get a bigger pay raise, however I doubt that will happen.

How do you account for the many more high paying spots DL brings to the table?

Break the fleets down by gauge and integrate accordingly. That's been the result in recent arbitrations.

NWA fleet is approximately 18% wide bodied, whereas DAL's fleet is 25% wide bodied. Slot the top 18% at NWA with the top 25% at DAL.

The same goes for the 757s. NWA's fleet is about 20% 757, DAL's is about 30%, so slot the next 20% of NWA pilots with the next 30% of DAL pilots.

NWA's fleet is 62% narrow bodied, DAL's is 45% narrow bodied, so slot the bottom 62% of NWA pilots with the bottom 45% of DAL pilots.

The end result is everyone can still hold post merger what they could hold pre merger and equities are balanced.

The latest arbitrated decision involving ALPA merger policy effectively did the same thing.

I've got lots more. We probably have a better chance of brokering peace between India and Pakistan than a negotiated deal here.

That may be the case, but let's see what happens.

 

[FDJ2]

Even more worrisome is the $4 billion dollar debt payment DAL has due in a few years.

I'm concerned about the proportionally higher long term debt NWA brings to the party.

I also have a problem with giving equal weight to the relative seniority of pilots that bring less pay and smaller guage equipment to the merger.

Proportionally DAL has more wide bodied aircraft than NWA, more 757s and fewer small narrow bodied aircraft.

How do you suppose we should account for that?

Perhaps after considering the disparity in pay and gauge we could then create the dynamic list you were referring to earlier.

 

[NuGuy]

I'm concerned about the proportionally higher long term debt NWA brings to the party.

Touche', but personally, I'm concerned that DAL, even with more and/or larger aircraft makes half the money with more RPMS.

Sure, that money goes to the company, but you can't fight for improvements (easily, anyway) unless there is money coming into the till.

Despite what ERAU-like delusions of grandeur that the DAL koolaid provides, you aren't dealing with some woebegone little outfit on the skids.

We don't need rescuing ala Western, USAir or PanAm, the stock swap has no premium and if anything, it's NWAs margins that will be paying for any pay raises and equity payouts.

Nu

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Nu,

Would you stop with the childish flamebait. You are begining to act like the general. If this goes through, we are going to have to work together if we ever expect to get what we all deserve. None of us on here no ******************** except maybe Occam, and he has been very quiet. I am pretty sure from your posts who you are and realize you are fairly jr and have your fears, but this flamebait is not going to help our jr guys at all.

 

[Burt Gutherie]

Let's just all hope this deal dies on the vine.

 

[NuGuy]

Nu,
I am pretty sure from your posts who you are and realize you are fairly jr and have your fears, but this flamebait is not going to help our jr guys at all.

Sure I have fears. Spiders...big harry ones...can't stand them. Plus a bad case of coulrophobia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulrophobia) .

The key here is that all the "goodies" in the world means absolutely ZERO with a bad integration. If the DAL guys don't want to play ball, cool, we can excuse ourselves and they can get with makin' with the love with the UAL guys.

Besides, there isn't much trick in "baiting" the fish around here. They pretty much rise up to any old trash.

Nu

 

[Fly4hire]

I also have a problem with giving equal weight to the relative seniority of pilots that bring less pay and smaller guage equipment to the merger.

Well, I didn't say it was 1:1, I've heard 1:1.2 You still get credit for your bigger fleet, but not your inflated egos.

 

[NuGuy]

Well, I didn't say it was 1:1, I've heard 1:1.2 You still get credit for your bigger fleet, but not your inflated egos.

Hmmm, I wondered what that hissing sound around ATL was. I thought it was a bad window seal.

Nu

 

[FDJ2]

Hmmm, I wondered what that hissing sound around ATL was. I thought it was a bad window seal.

Nu

Given the age of your fleet it probably was a window seal.

If you need a recommendation on where to buy your new double breasted uniform and hat send me a PM.

Like I'v said before, don't take this too personally. Both pilot groups are well represented, I'm confident our diffferences can be worked out.

 

[737 Pylt]

Well, I didn't say it was 1:1, I've heard 1:1.2 You still get credit for your bigger fleet, but not your inflated egos.

Fly:
I've restrained from commenting on any of the integration stuff, because the press rarely gets anything correct, but I have to agree with the above poster, insulting us doesn't help the negotiations that are going on right now. Let the negotiating committee do their work.
In the words of Rodney King, "can't we all just get along?"
I can guarentee you this. No flame baiting, insulting, is going to change any outcome, besides, how many contract disputes were solved here on FI?

Regards,
737

 

[ultrarunner]

...Like I'v said before, don't take this too personally. Both pilot groups are well represented, I'm confident our diffferences can be worked out....

C'mon...you mean you're not printing up D.O.H. bag stickers???

 

[Fly4hire]

but I have to agree with the above poster, insulting us doesn't help the negotiations that are going on right now. Let the negotiating committee do their work.

I can guarentee you this. No flame baiting, insulting, is going to change any outcome, besides, how many contract disputes were solved here on FI?

You are contradicting yourself. I do agree nothing said here has any outcome on anything, so we should not get wrapped up in being PC either as if it did.

 

[FDJ2]

C'mon...you mean you're not printing up D.O.H. bag stickers???

Good one.:laugh: