The West walks out...

[ALGFLYR]

Word from CLT today says the West has walked out of negotiation meetings with the East in the "Lockdown".....

 

[ALGFLYR]

Well, now not sure what happened... It was said in a CLT meeting that the West walked... However, just found this on the ALPA board...

Joint Statement from the East and West Steering
Committees​

February 8, 2008​

The East and West Steering Committees met at a neutral location for ten days to explore consensual solutions to our respective needs. The talks were cordial, and each side now has a clearer understanding of each other's issues. Talks concluded on Thursday afternoon. At this time, no further meetings are scheduled, but talks may resume at a later date.​

 

[General Lee]

Did the East guys try to beat up the West guys like your mechanics did a year or so ago? (were they mechanics or rampers?) Didn't Dougwiser go out to PHL and pretend he was a new ramper and some of the East rampers got on him and pushed him around a bit, until later in the day when he announced to them he was the CEO? That took some cajones.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[iflyhigh]

It is my understanding that nobody, not even MEC reps, know what is going on in the steering committee meetings.

I would take anything, any East or West MEC says with a grain of salt.

 

[Turtle21]

It is my understanding that nobody, not even MEC reps, know what is going on in the steering committee meetings.

I would take anything, any East or West MEC says with a grain of salt.

Undoubtedly, anyone who has ever paid dues to ALPA knows to take a grain a salt with anything they say.

I would guess there are a small select number who know exactly what is going on and know the time line too.

 

[johnsonrod]

Did the East guys try to beat up the West guys like your mechanics did a year or so ago? (were they mechanics or rampers?) Didn't Dougwiser go out to PHL and pretend he was a new ramper and some of the East rampers got on him and pushed him around a bit, until later in the day when he announced to them he was the CEO? That took some cajones.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Wow - I have more respect for that boozer if he really did that. Unfortunately I fly to PHL quite a bit and I encounter those thugs frequently. It seems like a mafia training ground.

 

[Turtle21]

Word from CLT today says the West has walked out of negotiation meetings with the East in the "Lockdown".....

It is a shame that in all of this, pilots forget the real issue is that ALPA walked out.

 

[ultrarunner]

I'm confused. What is there to negotiate? How to implement the binding award?

I'm not sure what the talk are about.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Grog....

Your point is well taken in the other thread. I was going on a post from the ALPA board about the West walking... I saw the update on the talks and immediately re-posted better information, as you can see, my two posts are only 6 minutes apart. I never thought about changing the thread title, didn't realize you could do that. I tried now but cannot get an edit function on any of my original posts....

 

[johnnyb]

From the East MEC update:
After nine days of talks between the US Airways and America West Steering Committees, the America West contingent has chosen to stand down talks

What is the West take?

 

[TWA Dude]

Our updates didn't specify who walked out but I don't see the relevence anyway. Since one side wanted concessions from the other it's no surprise an agreement couldn't be reached. How about binding arbitration?

 

[johnsonrod]

From the East MEC update:
After nine days of talks between the US Airways and America West Steering Committees, the America West contingent has chosen to stand down talks

What is the West take?

I work for neither side but I have a question. Why agree to binding arbitration in the first place if you are not going to follow the eventual ruling? I don't get it...

 

[Prog 2/2]

Word from CLT today says the West has walked out of negotiation meetings with the East in the "Lockdown".....

Why should we now have any obligation to negotiate that which was previously negotiated, mediated, and arbitrated?

 

[ferlo]

It is a shame that in all of this, pilots forget the real issue is that ALPA walked out.[/quo

I have to disagree completely with this statement. It was the East the refused to negotiate anything but a doh staple job for over two years. It was their side that failed to impress nicalau. They signed up for binding arbitration, they didn't like the award and now they're going to burden the profession more with their little bitchy tirade. If ALPA failed at all, it was in not presenting the list in a timely manner. Prater, shirked his reponsibilities on that one.

 

[PCL_128]

Our updates didn't specify who walked out but I don't see the relevence anyway. Since one side wanted concessions from the other it's no surprise an agreement couldn't be reached. How about binding arbitration?

Would you refuse any sort of fence agreement that helped out the East pilots in an attempt to settle this amicably rather than destroying the entire company with uSAPa? I realize that the Nic award was binding, but your concern should be with cleaning up the mess at this point. If a settlement can be made that would be beneficial to both sides, then screaming "Nic is binding" over and over again would be a bad move.

 

[Green]

Word from CLT today says the West has walked out of negotiation meetings with the East in the "Lockdown".....

AlgFlyr,

It is called Bindiiiiiiing arbitration. Do you understand the term binding? The east collectively rolling on the floor and throwing the biggest tempertantrum in the history of aviation is not going to change the nicolau award. If i walked up to you and asked you to split your 401k with me you'd probably tell me to go f off. Yet y'all out east expect us to just give away our seniority that was decided via a pre-determined process.

You can all go pound sand as far as i'm concerned. Enjoy the upgrade and just don't focus on the fact that your TOP narrowbody CA pay is LESS than SWA FO pay...

 

[TWA Dude]

Would you refuse any sort of fence agreement that helped out the East pilots in an attempt to settle this amicably rather than destroying the entire company with uSAPa?

Well, first of all if USAPA destroys the company I won't have a drop of blood on my hands. Small consolation, perhaps. But in any case as I've said from the beginning I'm open to negotiation. What I object to is negotiating under duress which is exactly the postion the East puts us in. If they were truly interested in negotiation they'd drop the nuisance suit and re-engage in the Joint Negotiations. Absent that it's clear they're more interested in extortion and it's not in our best interest to give in to that.

I've no doubt that during the ten days of talks that just took place every idea under the sun was explored. My FO LEC rep told me in person that doing nothing is the same as allowing ourselves to be fenced and I agree with him. Just the same, bad behavior should be punished and not rewarded. I don't believe USAPA is a shoe-in if/when the election takes place. Not every Eastie is an irrational/emotional whiner.

 

[Carl S.]

The East seeks relief from NIC., but offers nothing in return, in a business world that is a dead end.

 

[ALGFLYR]

AlgFlyr,

You can all go pound sand as far as i'm concerned. Enjoy the upgrade and just don't focus on the fact that your TOP narrowbody CA pay is LESS than SWA FO pay...

Hey, at least our top narrowbody pay is HIGHER THAN YOURS!!!

 

[waveflyer]

Hey, at least our top narrowbody pay is HIGHER THAN YOURS!!!

Yes, barely- AND I MEAN BARELY- most regionals top out at over a $100/hour- so you saying your $125/hour for an airplane 3 times as large is no accomplishment. It's a shame. (Don't get me started on your E-190 rates that are worse than every regional in the country- Every republic/shuttle america driver that taxi's by- think about how they are making more money than you! a major airline? AYFKM?!)

Up until this summer i would say you were the largest victims of seniority as we have created it and the gov't condoned abuse of bankruptcy. Since this summer- it's ALL YOUR FAULT. Pride to your own detriment...?? I don't get it.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Does anyone seriously think the east would be offering a "solution" to the west if the situation was reversed? USAPA is purely about the ability of the majority to use their numbers to impose tyranny on the minority, who happen to have the legal upper hand this time.

 

[whymeworry?]

Did the East guys try to beat up the West guys like your mechanics did a year or so ago? (were they mechanics or rampers?) Didn't Dougwiser go out to PHL and pretend he was a new ramper and some of the East rampers got on him and pushed him around a bit, until later in the day when he announced to them he was the CEO? That took some cajones.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Gawd... children.

I'd love to see some pilot/ ramper/ airline worker try pushing me around.

 

[johnnyb]

If they were truly interested in negotiation they'd drop the nuisance suit and re-engage in the Joint Negotiations.
My FO LEC rep told me in person that doing nothing is the same as allowing ourselves to be fenced and I agree with him.

If you were truly interested in negotiation you'd provide something that would make me want to give up that fence.

Works both ways.

 

[Turtle21]

...Not every Eastie is an irrational/emotional whiner.

The East doesn't seem to have the equivalent of a "David Shopey" with goat videos.:laugh: Thankfully the West only seems to have one.

So looks like we will all get along just fine once the cooler heads sort this all out.

 

[TWA Dude]

If you were truly interested in negotiation you'd provide something that would make me want to give up that fence.

That is some very skewed and circuitous logic. Our negotiators didn't withdraw from the JNC; yours did. Nice try.

Works both ways.

Yes, it does. When your side wants to negotiate, that is, doing something other than demanding concessions, maybe a deal can be reached. Our leverage lies with contractual law while your leverage lies with burning the airline down. You have more to lose than we do.

 

[ultrarunner]

Is there any advantage to the West having this move along quickly? I'm thinking that as bad as the East pilots have been raped, both physically, and contractually, the West folks would just sit back and let the East drag this out as long as they are willing to keep getting raped and working under the $hitty rules they have.

What am I missing here?

 

[TWA Dude]

What you're missing is a) the Transition Agreement which gives us seats on all new aircraft. Right now we're effectively fenced off the 757s and E190s acquired since the merger. b) the East has benefitted since the merger by upgrading numerous FOs while we've been almost completely stagnant. And c) we want a new contract. If only it were the case that they're screwing only themselves.

 

[ultrarunner]

Thanks TWA for that. But in the transition agreement, would you get the seats on those birds under their work rules, or does it need to be under a combined list and a single contract?

I would seem that there wouldn't be any reason to want to go to the east side at all if it has to be under their work rules, and pay scales, right?

thanks

--ultra

 

[TWA Dude]

Thanks TWA for that. But in the transition agreement, would you get the seats on those birds under their work rules, or does it need to be under a combined list and a single contract?

The TA didn't specify those things, however, an arbitrator ruled that we wouldn't get those seats until a combined contract is in effect.

I would seem that there wouldn't be any reason to want to go to the east side at all if it has to be under their work rules, and pay scales, right?

Well, that's an individual choice. There are only about 100 AWA pilots (including me) residing east of the Mississippi. Personally, if PHL weren't such a pain to commute to I'd be very interested in taking a 190 seat even under LOA 93.

 

[ultrarunner]

Yeah, commuting to PHL is about as much fun as commuting to JFK.

Heck, when I airline, I don't even go through PHL since if I have to connect, CLT gets me there WAY easier.

Hopefully you guys will sort this out quickly. But litigation pretty much precludes that happening.