Delta and ASA close call in ATL

[BSkin]

I heard the same thing. However, could this be a case of a 500 hr FO believing what he thought he heard, and a CA letting his guard down?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I heard the same thing. However, could this be a case of a 500 hr FO believing what he thought he heard, and a CA letting his guard down?

.... it was a low time FO, but the bigger problem was probably all of the BS that is supposed to be briefed on the way to the runway........... Recipe flying is more harmful than helpful......The more "briefing" that goes on, the less brain power and listening that is devoted to important stuff like holding short of a runway that aircraft are departing on......

The irony is that this will result in yet another stupid procedure from the FAA/GO geeks that will simply make the problem even worse.....

 

[Jetsetter]

True, I simply put this A@@ clown on my ignore list. It makes surfing these threads more plesant.

slinky

Yep thats what I did, now I can read threads that say Delta in them and I don't waste time reading anything clown has to say.....

 

[PCL_128]

......Hillary is no different than your "Obama".....they both want more Federal Govt........

So do the Republicans. Have you not been paying attention to Bush's reign over the past 7 years? His prescription drug benefit was a huge addition to the federal government, and it's costing us billions. No matter who you elect, government is going to get bigger. Not even Reagan could stop the spending increases, no matter how hard he tried.

This could have been much worse.....looks like our aircraft was taxiing out for departure..... my guess is there was a bunch of "briefing" going on.... that is what the FAA and the GO types do to try and fix these problems..... which results in more of these situations..... too much "briefing" and not enough paying attention..... I don't care if the TO ITT is 765 or 764.... I care about not hitting someone.....

Agree with you on this one. Far too much talking and not enough paying attention in today's cockpits. We have callouts and briefings for every little thing. It's making things worse, not better.

Off the topic, but why do you think Obama is any different than Hillary.....

Well, for starters, I don't think he's so devoid of humanity and morality that he'd do absolutely anything to attain and hold on to power. The Clintons have no morals and ethics, and the only thing that has ever mattered to either of them is their own quest for power. Because of that, I'd support anyone over Hillary. But I also think Obama has a decent solution for healthcare, I like his proposal to increase the payroll tax on wealthy income earners to help pay for SS, I like the middle-class tax cuts, etc...

 

[BSkin]

.... it was a low time FO, but the bigger problem was probably all of the BS that is supposed to be briefed on the way to the runway........... Recipe flying is more harmful than helpful......The more "briefing" that goes on, the less brain power and listening that is devoted to important stuff like holding short of a runway that aircraft are departing on......

The irony is that this will result in yet another stupid procedure from the FAA/GO geeks that will simply make the problem even worse.....

I agree to an extent, briefings have become redundant, FAA induced, highly ignored matters for the CVR. However responsibility falls to the CA. It's his ship, his responsibility, hold the briefing off for less taxing times (and less taxiing times)!

 

[waveflyer]

.... it was a low time FO, but the bigger problem was probably all of the BS that is supposed to be briefed on the way to the runway........... Recipe flying is more harmful than helpful......The more "briefing" that goes on, the less brain power and listening that is devoted to important stuff like holding short of a runway that aircraft are departing on......

The irony is that this will result in yet another stupid procedure from the FAA/GO geeks that will simply make the problem even worse.....

Isn't this ATL? Meaning they were crossing the runway after landing and switching over to the dept. tower freq. What would they be briefing then? How bout we wait until we find out a fact or two.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Isn't this ATL? Meaning they were crossing the runway after landing and switching over to the dept. tower freq. What would they be briefing then? How bout we wait until we find out a fact or two.

They were taxing out for 28 departure.....Are you a fan of the "brief everything"?

 

[waveflyer]

ahh- i see.
no- i agree w/ not losing the forest for all the trees- but i've seen both ways go too far- too much and you have your point- too little- and you have pilots 5 months after a PC having no idea how they would actually perform a V1 cut or GA.

That's not the issue though- the problem then would be why brief anywhere near a runway-especially on that long of a taxi-where's the hurry? Better yet, why not do that at the gate?

You have valid points though- What is ASA doing that makes you think that's the culprit?

 

[ron burgundy]

I was taught to clear visually before taking off. It's a pretty common technique in the AF.]

Yea, as civilians we are taught just close your eyes,trust the controllers,firewall power and when you can't hold her on the ground any longer...pull back on the yoke.That's how MEN do it. Don't worry if you pull to hard, cause you got a shaker thing that tells you if you did it wrong. I taxi in the blind, take off in the blind,fly in the blind,land in the blind and above all...I lead the blind!! I AM LEGEND!!!!!!!!

 

[Captzaahlie]

I was taught to clear visually before taking off. It's a pretty common technique in the AF. Maybe it used to be at Delta, but it's kinda scary what they're bringing on these days. Maybe it's just par for the course now.

How do you visually clear something that has not yet crossed into your path? Further more how do you visually clear the guy that is supposed to be holding short of your runway? The answer is you can't. Now if your comment was it's smart to look down the runway (as far as you can see) if you are the flying pilot , I would agree. I've seen both heads down while the power was being set (while jump seating) and wonder how we stayed on the center line. Sometimes you have to trust the other person who's holding short and sometimes they brain fade and or just don't see you, just like in traffic when you are driving.........
Do you have a crystal ball that you look at before you start rolling down the runway?

 

[737 Pylt]

They were taxing out for 28 departure.....Are you a fan of the "brief everything"?

Joe:
While I don't agree with you on just about anything, I'll give you this one.....Briefings should be done at the gate.....That's DL's policy. I also agree with you that more time breifing while taxiing, especially while in ATL, can be distracting. Complacancy can hurt you sometimes......

737

BTW tanker clown, you are nothing more than a miserable POS flying a desk! Get a life loser!

 

[waveflyer]

why do you all even respond to some of these guys- deafening silence would be best don't you think.

 

[JoeMerchant]

ahh- i see.
no- i agree w/ not losing the forest for all the trees- but i've seen both ways go too far- too much and you have your point- too little- and you have pilots 5 months after a PC having no idea how they would actually perform a V1 cut or GA.

That's not the issue though- the problem then would be why brief anywhere near a runway-especially on that long of a taxi-where's the hurry? Better yet, why not do that at the gate?

You have valid points though- What is ASA doing that makes you think that's the culprit?

In 13 years at ASA I have seen the briefings get longer and longer..... and they take away from paying attention to the important stuff.....

We now have a d@mn college disertation on the back of the load manifest that is supposed to be briefed on the way to the runway..... I tell the FO they can brief it if they want, but if they do I won't listen.... and I turn them down....

The amount of BS in the briefs these days is incredible...... all created by pencil necked geeks sitting in conference rooms who think they are important and are trying to climb up the ladder....

This incident will result in yet another procedure that will detract from the act of being a pilot....

As to your point, you shouldn't have to brief how to do a V1 cut or a GA..... that's what being a pilot is..... Just do it and quit the vocal recipe flying.....

 

[Jmoney]

Stupid Procedure....

I have been complaining for some time about the new procedure ATL has for crossing on the southside.

We are told to switch to a new tower freq. up to three times during our taxi to/from that new runway. Each time they say "monitor tower on XXX.XX." The problem is that you are gone from one freq, not confirmed up on the next, and here you are supposedly holding short of an active runway. It is obvious that we could have someone on the wrong freq. (two-way comm still is not confirmed) get all confused and go trucking right across.

It would be simple and easy to just say "Contact tower, freq. XXX.XX" rather than this silly "monitor tower" garbage. This would ensure not only that you are now on the correct freq, but each person would confirm holding short when checking on. I am not sure whether this was a factor today, but I have been trying to warn people for a long time.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe:
While I don't agree with you on just about anything, I'll give you this one.....Briefings should be done at the gate.....That's DL's policy. I also agree with you that more time breifing while taxiing, especially while in ATL, can be distracting. Complacancy can hurt you sometimes......

737

BTW tanker clown, you are nothing more than a miserable POS flying a desk! Get a life loser!

Anytime we can agree is progress......
:beer:

 

[JoeMerchant]

I have been complaining for some time about the new procedure ATL has for crossing on the southside.

We are told to switch to a new tower freq. up to three times during our taxi to/from that new runway. Each time they say "monitor tower on XXX.XX." The problem is that you are gone from one freq, not confirmed up on the next, and here you are supposedly holding short of an active runway. It is obvious that we could have someone on the wrong freq. (two-way comm still is not confirmed) get all confused and go trucking right across.

It would be simple and easy to just say "Contact tower, freq. XXX.XX" rather than this silly "monitor tower" garbage. This would ensure not only that you are now on the correct freq, but each person would confirm holding short when checking on. I am not sure whether this was a factor today, but I have been trying to warn people for a long time.....

Jmoney,

This was crossing 27R..... the first tower freq. you get after ground.....The problem is all the extraneous BS that we are supposed to talk about on the way to the runway.....Forget the brief and listen to the GD radio with both heads out of the cockpit...

 

[waveflyer]

As to your point, you shouldn't have to brief how to do a V1 cut or a GA..... that's what being a pilot is..... Just do it and quit the vocal recipe flying.....

I was with you- right up until this point-

You're only as good as your habits- and the day you actually have a V1 cut- you'll be glad it's in your habits to mentally practice it more than every 6 months. Especially to younger pilots who don't have 13 years of experience as their foundation.

Anyone else want to back me up on this?

Again- it seems like ASA might be briefing too much and nobody's paying attention to anything- which is a problem- But it's also a problem if your procedure is to brief it on the taxi when you should be thinking about what you're doing.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I was with you- right up until this point-

You're only as good as your habits- and the day you actually have a V1 cut- you'll be glad it's in your habits to mentally practice it more than every 6 months. Especially to younger pilots who don't have 13 years of experience as their foundation.

Anyone else want to back me up on this?

Again- it seems like ASA might be briefing too much and nobody's paying attention to anything- which is a problem- But it's also a problem if your procedure is to brief it on the taxi when you should be thinking about what you're doing.

If it was up to me, the experience level would be higher...... A 121 pilot should know how to step on a rudder when an engine quits....

The fact of the matter is a V1 cut hardly ever happens..... especially with turbine engines.... runway incursions happen all the time..... we are focusing on events that hardly ever happen at the determent of events that happen all the time.....

Big picture.......and experience help.....

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I love how we get ground, tower, another tower, another ground and yet another tower for frequencies on the way out to 28.

Definitely not a time to be doing briefings.... it's busy enough keeping my head swinging back and forth trying to make sure we're not going to put our piece of alluminum in the way of another piece of alluminum moving at high speed.

If anything, if there are briefings that need to be done... get them done while 5 in line for the south spot out of the ramp or after you cross 27L/9R and get established on the southside.

 

[ron burgundy]

C5 accident? Yea, AF is such a good program. Chock it up for great instruction there.

AMEN!!!

 

[waveflyer]

Look- we agree about the long-winded briefs-but the truth is that at ASA you have young pilots who will be freaking out if they get their once in a career moment sooner than later. You don't fly for the 99.9% of the time everything runs perfect- you build habits and fly so that the .1% goes just as smooth. That means an appropriate brief that isn't long winded but covers everything you need. Spitting out the V1 or GA mantra now and then helps me handle those 1%ers in a smooth way also-- makes sim a piece of cake too. It wasn't my regional who taught me that- it was the majors-- I think there are reasons that older pilots tend to get more conservative-- they've seen more of the .1% situations...

- but again, like others have said- why aren't you just briefing at the gate? Wouldn't all this be moot?

 

[Wildmanny]

Didn't Delta taxi off the taxiway in CLE a couple of weeks ago? Maybe they need to work on their ground operations. If this keeps up an operating loss will be the least of their worries.

Hey goon boy!

Stop making the rest of the world think Air Force guys are tools. With your avatar, I think you might be a bit um...gay. You being a tanker "clown" and showing it so proudly with your T-1 Gayhawk time, your 135 time (lame, if it wasn't for the E-3, you'd be the worst pilots in the Air Force), and your KC-10 (likely scored from on your knees at AFPC) doesn't make you look good. Just stop.

By the way, if you want to have cred on this board, have some experience in a "Civ" job. Otherwise, back to your desk.

P.S.--You sound like someone I instructed in the Tweet. I couldn't stand you and neither could anyone else. It appears you're still the same.

Have a great day!

 

[Wildmanny]

Haven't even interviewed with DAL. I'm hoping not to. Hopefully I can go straight to FedEx, UPS, or SWA. I'll go to DAL if I have to if the big paying jobs aren't availiable at that time.

All of this is a few years away. I have a contract with the AF to fly to the 20 year point. A contract is a thing that two or more parties agree upon for the doing a specific job. Thought some of the DAL folks might want to know that since they don't seem to mind their company breaking their contract.

Ding Ding Ding!!!

We have a winner. You are a total loser. You have a contract with the Air Force? Whatever. You've proven to me you are a complete lemming. What's wrong, world too tough out there for you? Take a chance lame-ooo. Get out and enlighten us all with your "experience".

By the way, forget FedEx--you've been blackballed...yeah, it happens and likely has happened to you already everywhere else too.

 

[PCL_128]

In 13 years at ASA I have seen the briefings get longer and longer..... and they take away from paying attention to the important stuff.....

We now have a d@mn college disertation on the back of the load manifest that is supposed to be briefed on the way to the runway..... I tell the FO they can brief it if they want, but if they do I won't listen.... and I turn them down....

The amount of BS in the briefs these days is incredible...... all created by pencil necked geeks sitting in conference rooms who think they are important and are trying to climb up the ladder....

This incident will result in yet another procedure that will detract from the act of being a pilot....

As to your point, you shouldn't have to brief how to do a V1 cut or a GA..... that's what being a pilot is..... Just do it and quit the vocal recipe flying.....

Excellent post!!! I agree with every word, Joe.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I love how we get ground, tower, another tower, another ground and yet another tower for frequencies on the way out to 28.

All hail the "Victor Loop"

 

[atl pilot]

If y'all don't like the procedures at ATL, then report them to your Chief Pilots and get those NASA Reports set in en-mass! These procedures have been forced down the controllers throats too....espicially having to open Ground South (121.65) for absolutely no reason - taking away from the very few short breaks we're getting these days. You have to remember, we're working under a unilaterally voided (by the FAA) labor contract and imposed work rules. The FAA does not care what the controllers have to say (poerationally or otherwise), so if y'all want something different it will have to be influenced by you - the users (comapnies and pilots) through the appropriate means. A NASA Report leaves a paper trail.....

 

[John Pennekamp]

Jmoney,

This was crossing 27R..... the first tower freq. you get after ground.....The problem is all the extraneous BS that we are supposed to talk about on the way to the runway.....Forget the brief and listen to the GD radio with both heads out of the cockpit...

FWIW, Joe, the takeoff briefing happens right before the "before takeoff check" which happens when you're about number 4 for takeoff. So if they were taxiing for 28, they probably weren't doing a briefing yet while told to hold short of 27R, since they still had about 10 minutes of taxiing before running that checklist.

But I still agree that all of the briefings and the "college dissertation" (lol) are asinine.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Ding Ding Ding!!!

We have a winner. You are a total loser. You have a contract with the Air Force? Whatever. You've proven to me you are a complete lemming. What's wrong, world too tough out there for you? Take a chance lame-ooo. Get out and enlighten us all with your "experience".

By the way, forget FedEx--you've been blackballed...yeah, it happens and likely has happened to you already everywhere else too.

What's the plan to blackball me? Are you going to just blackball every guy from the AF who flew KC-135's and KC-10's? Sounds like a good plan.

The reserve unit we fly with has pleanty of FedEx guys in it who said they'd sponsor me. Most of them are Capts now.

 

[Headfake14]

Former ASAer here...

Seems like there is an aweful lot of "assuming" that these guys were briefing. Yes, I remember LOTS of briefing, but I'll wait for the final outcome and tapes to be played before I chastise someone for briefing at the wrong time.

2ndly...I remember that at certain taxiway intersections, you couldn't see to the other end of the runway...so you could look and clear and not know someone was starting the roll...that being from the deck height of the ATR/CRJ.

As far as briefings go...I woulndn't recite V1s and all that crap EVERY time...BUT, in cases like ROA, AVL and other fancy terrain areas, then I'd go over them since things were a bit different.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Agree. How many times do you actually listen to the FO's "dissertation"? It's just distracting background noise and completely unnecessary. If you gotta do it, do it at the gate or after you've crossed all the runways you're going to cross.